THIS THREAD HAS NOW CLOSED BUT COMMENTS CONTINUE ON A NEW THREAD: YOUR SHOUT: Economic problems
>> Darling comments threaten to escalate into diplomatic row
4 November 2008
>> Darling accused of 'washing his hands' of Isle of Man depositors
04 November 2008
>> Petition to wind up Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander is adjourned
>>Desperate KSF customers withdrawing millions in run up to collapse
>> Singer & Friedlander Investment Management (IoM) bought by Thomas Miller Investment
>> More than 10m govt funds deposited with Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander
>>Bank crisis: Fears for 1 million Hospice deposit
>>Banking crisis: Treasury Minister warns this week is 'critical'
>>Kaupthing crisis: MHK urges alterations to compensation scheme
>> Kaupthing crisis needs political solution, says depositor
16 October 2008
>> UK to represent Isle of Man over Kaupthing collapse
15 October 2008
>> Scale of Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander collapse hits home
13 October 2008
>> Isle of Man pledges action on Kaupthing collapse
10 October 2008
>> Heated scenes at Kaupthing meeting
9 October 2008
>> Isle of Man records first major casualty of credit crunch
9 October 2008
>> Savings guarantee plan put forward by MHKs
6 October 2008
THIS THREAD HAS NOW CLOSED BUT COMMENTS CONTINUE ON A NEW THREAD:
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 05, 2008 10:09: One of the major issues coming out of this affair is 'what happens to the IoM as a reputable banking centre going forward?' I a depositor wishes to have 'safe' banking then they are likely to more inclined towards Switzerland or Luxembourg in the future than IoM, simply because the safety net of 50,000 is not sufficient. The IoM authorities must either underwrite much larger sums or be far more vigorous in its licensing regime. Any thorough investigation of KSF would have shown that the bank was too heavily dependant on wholesale banking, without having sufficient 'funds' lodged in the IoM to cover their covenant. I believe that the banks in IoM should have to have a 15% cover. Basel II is not enough as recent events have shown.
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 05, 2008 09:36: Dear Sir,
I am extremely confused by the news reports which declare that the Isle of Man is an off shore tax haven. To whom does this apply? Certainly not me; I am a UK citizen living in Spain and still have business interests in UK. When I informed my high street bank of the impending move to Spain I was told that I could no longer hold an account with them and this was also to be the case with a second account with high street bank which had originated from a mutual. Both banks suggested that I open an off shore account and I elected for S&F IOM which later became KSF. I have tax deducted at 22% by KSF on the interest from deposit accounts which is also declared by my accountant in my UK tax returns. So, who benefits from the tax deductions, UK or IOM?
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 04, 2008 07:48: Dear Sir
Sir, a kind request to read for your information and to consider for publication, a message directed to PM Mr. Gordon Brown, the Chancellor Mr. Darling and the uk Treasury? We will greatly appreciate it.
This is for and on behalf of 8000 Depositors of Kaupthing Singer Friedlander IOM and for the Isle of Man and it's community.
We are holding Mr. Gordon Brown and the culprit Mr. Darling accountable for their irresponsible and illegal acts that resulted in total chaos in the international community. We are being ignored by the UK government and we fear that this may be swept under the carpet. Thousands of savers who are ready for retirement have lost their life savings as you are well aware of. Most are expats working outside the UK, and cannot open a bank account within the borders of the UK.
We appreciate the IOM community and the IOM authority for being as level headed as they are in this fiasco.
Sir, your Island made provisions for us where the UK did not.
We are being classified as tax dodgers, but you know as well as we do that these remarks from Darling are filthy political tactics employed to try and cover up for his stupendous blunder.
You are fighting for the same cause as us, where we want our money back which was stolen from us by the UK and you want your respect and stable future back for the isle of Man, inflicted by the UK bully.
Thank you very much for your valuable time lent to us in reading this email
You are aware that as a result of your noble action to safeguard British depositors in the UK, assets accrued from the 7000 plus international British depositors from KSF IOM , deposits amounting to aprox. 600 mil. Pounds are being retained in the UK, with obvious plans to distribute it to the unfortunate British depositors of KSF UK. Hereby ignoring and abandoning the British depositors of IOM to their fate. Adapting the easy out option, simply stating that the UK is not responsible for IOM affairs. IGNORING the FACT that the UK WAS responsible for the dilemma in the first place, not only that of IOM depositors, but also the final straw in downfall of Iceland and the stable future of IOM as an offshore facility.
("Acting on the advice of the Bank and FSA, in the light of announcements made by the Icelandic authorities in recent days...") See your quote below. Please explain what announcements made by the Icelandic authorities you are referring to here.
The only dialogue I am aware of is the telephone conversation between Darling and Mathieson, where Mathieson explicitly iterates that Iceland will honor its parental guarantee to all depositors, regardless of race, nationality, local or international.... unlike the guarantee of the UK limited merely to it's UK depositors, not even including the international UK depositors, let alone other nationalities.
Yes Iceland was in difficulties and was trying to explain this all along. AND NO Iceland is not a terrorist country, it's one of your fellow European nations, allbeight small, hardly a reason to knock it out. Not once did the Icelandic authorities deny their legal liabilities. Refer to the Darling transcript.
After this telephone conversation, the very next day, the PM Gordon Brown froze all Icelandic assets in the UK using his terrorist act as justification to do so...(there-by implying that the Icelandic government supports terrorist activities as well as us, the international British depositors) ...the Chancellor exercised it's authority, resulting in international chaos.
THIS Sir, is nothing but a big blunder on the part of our leaders, take care that it does not escalate into a scandal of epic proportions.
Sir, we have had enough, and we are not going to let one stone unturned in the fight to get our money back, money that was earned the hard and long way, our life earnings, money we saved for our children, money that was already taxed as we are ALL tax payers, money that we saved for our old days in order not to be a burden on society, OUR money that YOU have.
Please answer what the KSF UK Liquidator is hiding with the sealed court papers, why the confidential court proceedings? Why are the court papers sealed? Who had the papers sealed? These are some of the questions that springs to mind from our fellow depositors. I am sure if made public awareness, the media and public would also like to know.
We will not stand to be victims of political blunders committed by our leaders, we will hold them responsible for their actions.
Sir, I hereby IMPLORE you to take this message serious, as it is written for and on behalf of my 8000 friends and fellow depositors.
We would like you to take this further and we need an answer back as to what your intentions are with our money.
We simply need you to release our money and return it to it's rightful owners.
As you know, the court on IOM decided that it is most feasible not to liquidate KSF IOM, and an extension of 28 days was granted.
Awaiting your soonest reply.
Depositor KSF IOM
08 October 2008
Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander
1. Acting on the advice of the Bank and FSA, and in light of announcements made by the Icelandic authorities in recent days, the Chancellor has taken action today to protect the retail depositors in Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander, a UK-based banking subsidiary of Kaupthing Bank. He has taken this action to ensure the stability of the UK financial system. Savers' money is safe and secure.
2. Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander (KSF) is regulated by the FSA. The FSA has determined that Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander no longer meets its threshold conditions, and is likely to be unable to continue to meet its obligations to depositors. The FSA concluded that KSF is in default for the purposes of the Financial Services Compensation Scheme. The Treasury has used the Banking (Special Provisions) Act 2008 to ensure a resolution that preserves financial stability and provides protection and continuity of business for depositors.
3. KSF's Kaupthing Edge deposit business has been transferred to ING Direct, a wholly-owned subsidiary of ING Group, which operates through its branch in the UK. ING Direct is working to rapidly ensure that it is business as normal for all customers.
4. This action by the Tripartite Authorities protects savers' money and provides certainty for retail depositors. The transfer of the retail deposit books has been backed by cash from HM Treasury and the Financial Services Compensation Scheme.
5. The remainder of Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander business has been put into administration. Any retail depositors eligible to claim under the Financial Services Compensation Scheme whose business has not been transferred to ING Direct will be paid out in full through the Financial Services Compensation Scheme.
6. This is the right course of action to protect savers, ensure financial stability, and safeguard the interests of the taxpayer.
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 04, 2008 18:31: Not two months ago, a contingent from IOM Treasury and political representatives went on a jolly to London, under the Freedom to flourish banner and entertained (no doubt at not inconsiderable taxpayers expense) UK officials at the Mansion House.
At the time Tony Brown quoted in his speech: "It is vitally important that we carry on building the Island's international relationships and reputation, so that the economy and prosperity of our community can continue to flourish."
Given all the expense (including the glossy brochure and menu and the lovely little three legs choccies they had with their coffee!), they must wonder why they bothered..!
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 04, 2008 16:39: Hi Folks, You heard it from Darling himself – I think the game is up for offshore banking. I feel really sorry for investors who lost money in this Iceland mess but it very much sounds like the offshore investors are going to be at the back of the cue for any compensation. The Isle of Man's bluff has been called – it's a good place to put your money when times are safe but in the looming economic uncertainty of the next few years it will be seen as a risk too far. Imagine if the Island does lose its constitutional and tax haven status, as has been inferred (and I think a certain tax haven hating democrat will be elected in the US tomorrow) then that will be that.
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 04, 2008 14:30: Not that I'm a fan of the Labour Government but what did Mr Bell and Mr Brown expect? Labour have been looking for an excuse for yrs to rescind our tax situation and by going to them for help the IOM has highlighted that it is unable to cope with the crisis. I have every sympathy for all of those that lost money to KSF but they did put their money in a high interest account which in turn means high risk. The risk was taken and they lost out. Very upsetting but the chance you take (I too have close family who lost a lot of money in this but even they agree that they signed up to a risk).
It only takes an act of Parliament for us to be brought back into the UK properly, therefore losing our tax status and all of the financial sector meaning loss of jobs etc etc. The IOM 'Government' needs to be very careful how they play this with the UK.
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 04, 2008 13:02: So now the Isle of Man is a foreign land for Mr.Darling. Interestingly in wasn't when the U.K. administration (HMRS) instructed the IOM bank's branches to provide them with bank account details and transactions of their clients "who had addresses in the United Kingdom and who holded accounts outside the UK" last year. Barclays Private Clients International Limited happily obliged HMRS with the requested details and included apparently as a bonus to HMRS also details of my bank accounts covering parts of the period between February 2000 and August 2004 despite the fact that I was resident in the Isle of Man and had no address in the UK. I wonder how many other client's details had been released to HMRS this way and for what purpose.
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 04, 2008 12:38: Allister Darlings astonishing neglect of KSF UK depositors at yesterdays treasury meeting was without doubt arrogant and will prove inadvisable
When the court proceedings inaugurated by the Icelandic government commence these comments will come back and haunt him.
Its quite simple really if our government is saying "nothing to do with us because its an off shore situation" THEN THE FROZEN ASSETS OF KSF IOM DEPOSITERS SHOULD BE RETURNED TO THE RECIEVERS IMMEDIATELY AS OUR GOVERNMENT CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 04, 2008 09:57: Alan Bell is 100% spot on. Darling knows his back's against the wall and so too do his Treasury people. What Alan Bell needs to do now is go on the offensive and offer banks the opportunity to have their domicile in IoM instead of UK and agree maximum profit tax payable subject to meeting minimum depositor compensation levels. That should put the cat amongst the pigeons.
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 04, 2008 05:29: From the "Independent" today reporting on yesterday's hearings by the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee: 'Responding to a large volume of queries about the fate of savers with Icelandic bank accounts held on the Isle of Man, Mr Darling said that he would have to "think long and hard" before offering them compensation, and that it was "something that we would not do lightly". He said he would look again at the tax-free and regulatory status of the Isle of Man, given the evident confusion about whether it is covered by the UK Financial Services Compensation Scheme.'
Is this an indication of the beginning of the end for our finance sector?
EVIL GOBLIN, Ramsey
MONDAY, NOVEMBER 03, 2008 10:38: MAT I'm sorry about your situation really I am but you don't know me from Adam. Therefore you don't know that for a period of a few months when I was growing up my parents had zero income as they were both forced out of work and the government did not want to offer any kind of benefits to a young couple with a young child, they therefore had to beg steal and borrow in order to feed and clothe me! They got through it! Maybe they did have age on their side at the time but it's rather defeatist to say that once you are over 55 and lose your money then its game over. My Gran worked until she was 70 in order to be able to pay her rent! This was necessary as her "corporate banker" of an ex husband left her and stole all HER life savings which would have been enough to almost buy her a house outright. Now with her state pension she is surviving on as good as nothing once she has paid the rent on her house! Still she manages. Yes it's terrible for you and if what I say above looks to you like I'm having a pop at you I'm really not! I am just trying to give examples of hardship that I personally have seen and I can empathise with your situation. I'm sure that if you approach the British Consulate they will be able to help you and your family temporarily until you get back on your feet. I will go back to my point about nations being rebuilt from rubble it's not easy but it is possible!
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 01, 2008 10:02: The news this morning,Allan Bell giving assurances that they are constantly at work over this issue,looking into things,having meetings etc,but no results yet,to me it looks like Dads Army has control of the situation,if anybody is doing the work it must be the UK government not this lot of Warlmington-on-Sea conscripts. If you want to see what our MHKs are working at today,go along to Shoprite,their packing bags of groceries,in a good cause of course,but it would have been better to employ their time looking after and meeting their constituents,and helping them with their problems. If I remember rightly,at election time,and in their manifestos,there was promises of surgeries,where are they ???.
SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 01, 2008 06:51: CW – You continue with this "...we need to get up dust ourselves off and find ways to get on with life until we eventually get our compensation from the depositors compensation scheme…". Explain that to someone who has lost their entire source of income. Of their pension. Of any hope of ever being able to get back to the position they were in before. We all know the DCS is a laughable waste of time; if you have lost less that 50K then you can "…get up dust ourselves off and find ways to get on with life until we eventually get our compensation from the depositors compensation scheme…", however if you are, for example 55 years old and lose your 200K life savings then forget it - game over.
SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 01, 2008 06:41: I have mentioned this on IoMToday before and i re-itterate it now. Unless the Kaupthing Singer & Freidlander debacle is resolved very quickly and with a 100% return to depositors, there will soon be deaths. A friend who works as a counsellor for severely depressed people has started to raise to very real concerns she has with the tone of comments that have started to be written on the www.ksfiomdepositors.org site (one of the websites used by Kaupthing customers to discuss and air their views). In the first few days she said that most, if not all, of the sad and depressing stories she read were typical of 'flash' issues – that come on quickly due to sudden events, but fade almost just as quickly. However, some of the texts being posted now are starting to give her real concern for the safety of the writers. She says that for many the 'flash' issue has remained at its peak and after 3 weeks is started to do psychological damage. 'These are people who have lost absolutely everything by no fault of their own and without support, being in various places around the world, they show the signs of clinical depression with a few probably very close to taking their own lives'. I urge all involved – Tynwald, PCW, FSC and most all the UK Government – to resolve this issue very quickly or we will start seeing some real tragedies around world caused by this. I have tried to contact the UK Government representatives concerning this, but unfortunately without success (there appears to be a wall of secrecy and silence), so if anyone can get this message through to those concerned they may save a life.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 30, 2008 13:03: The Government has been saying that they have a million or two exposed to KSF(IOM) but there are stories circulating within the financial community that this is not correct and that the IoM Government has something like 200million involved (presumably this would include Reserve Funds). I have my doubts that the Government would ever actually have such an amount in the form of cash deposits but it would be nice to know if anyone else knows whether or not the figure of a few million is correct or if it is much more.
EVIL GOBLIN, Ramsey
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 29, 2008 12:19: The whole of the media over here seem to hope this financial crisis will just go away. It won't – its going to get worse over the next 2 years at least. All the other stuff our MHKs are doing is moving deckchairs on the Titanic. The British economy is badly damaged and our banks are seen as inept and reckless by the general public. The trouble is the Isle of Man is dependant on these idiots. I think the economy will drastically shrink here next door and the housing bubble is going to well and truly burst as banking jobs are lost and institutions rationalised. If another arm of another bank goes down here, that will be that.
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 28, 2008 18:25: Hi I really can't believe it.
We are in the middle of a financial crisis and all our politicians can worry about is if the council are making any money from the Nobles Park Pavilion and where to place a bus stop!!!!!!!. It beggars' believe that these items are on a National Government agenda for discussion.
Come on our NATIOAAL POLOTITIOANS, if you wanted to do commissioners work you should have stood for the local elections.
Alan Bell had to cut his holiday short to make an announcement, did ums, our reputation is on the line here and our Government seems to be doing little about it. Hospice has just lost a million pounds in the collapse of a bank and our politicians seemed to be more concerned about dogs in parks.
Can't our politicians for once leave local politics to those elected to do it and carry on their role in ensuring the National wellbeing of this Island. I think not, any politician worth their salt would be doing just that.
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 28, 2008 13:35: Hi All, Please can I clear up something that ANON has said. LloydsTSB were in the process of buying HBOS when the collapse happened and HBOS received the Government support. As to Mat's comments about HAVING to transfer his money to an offshore bank, can I please ask why he chose KSF? Lots more banks of a more secure nature offer exactly the same account facilities but at a lower rate of interest so why not one of these if your cash was in there for only a short time period? I am really sorry to hear your tale of the destruction this is having on you and your family, but don't have a go at CW for his comments as these are facts. Maybe what we should really be doing is trying to support you and people like you better. Maybe a fund of some sort that the banks and government can start to have a more immediate affect in making this hell a little easier for those most affected.
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 28, 2008 09:12: MAT in response to your comments.
I stand by my statement it was not sarcastic. As is the human way we find ways to survive in times of hardship.
Look at wars, natural disasters even poverty in third world countries people find ways to get through the situation, rebuild nations from rubble and find ways to sustain themselves.
I agree your personal situation is awful and no I haven't experienced the hardship of having to hunt for food in bins, thankfully I still have a steady wage coming in so losing my savings has been an inconvenience but it hasn't affected my day to day life.
Maybe you did have to hold your funds offshore but any investment in any bank is a risk you could have put your funds with any bank anywhere in the world and the same fate could have happened.
I stand by what I said, we have been unfortunate, we need to get up dust ourselves off and find ways to get on with life until we eventually get our compensation from the depositors compensation scheme.
We have our health and ask anybody with no money they will agree with me that that is all that really matters at the end of the day.
MONDAY, OCTOBER 27, 2008 21:40: CW, You state that you do not respond to sarcastic remarks. Could i ask what "...but we really need to learn from our mistakes pick up the pieces and start again.." is?
Could you explain how? Many people are at an age when '…start again…' is simply not an option. Even those relatively young 40/50 something's who have spent 20-30 years building their savings will never be able to recover. For a very many of us, this disaster is not unfolding; it has already unfolded. Could I possible ask if you have had to rely on supermarket and shop bins for food? Have you had to obtain toiletries from public toilets? Have you watched as a loving, fun, happy and hard working family has disintegrated around you within a few days? When a whole family cries uncontrollably not because they are sad, but because they are terrified, tell me we just '…need to learn from our mistakes…'.
Finally. Tell me what mistakes we should learn from? Our money had just been transferred to the bank – offshore, because we had no choice – and was about to be transferred. Everything we were doing was being done due to laws and the system. It is so easy to come up with clichs like "...but we really need to learn from our mistakes pick up the pieces and start again..", but I ask you to just have a little thought first.
MONDAY, OCTOBER 27, 2008 17:18: It is easy for everyone to pass the blame around, IOM, British Govt, Icelandic Govt, Bank, Greedy depositors. Are we all forgetting we are in unchartered territory here. Most people thought putting your money in a bank was a cautious investment approach. If the depositors were going for big returns they would have not put money in a bank. As for investing in big names, Do you mean HBOS, RBS, Lloyds etc, who lets remember have all been bailed out by Government. There is probably some blame that can be apportioned around many. This only way forward is for lessons to be learnt and for those who won't have to pay out to be grateful that their bank hasn't gone under YET and to show some sympathy for those who lost everything, not by going to a casino, not by buying stocks and shares but simply by putting their hard earned cash in a bank. My personal view is that most, but not all the banks have taken depositors money and gambled it. If the customers of the banks were asked if this was OK with them, there is no question what the answer would be. A hard lesson has surely been learned by eveyone of us.
MONDAY, OCTOBER 27, 2008 09:12: PETER just in response to your post I have my own reasons for not putting my name up for others to view just to make you aware and I will continue using the moniker CW, this isn't out of disrespect for anybody on these forums I would just like to retain my anonymity.
DAVE completely agree with what you said as well about what has happened to the 500K a year that manx banks have been paying into the depositors compensation scheme. I am not sure exactly how many banks are members of this scheme but it isn't a new scheme so if what I say is correct then there should be a pot somewhere which contains the balance of all the payments made by the banks into the scheme. Minus maybe a few administrative charges? Unless these funds are still paying off the bank that collapsed in the eighties?
SUNDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2008 18:43: Hi Peter, sorry I didn't put my name on the bottom, pressed the button too quickly. In answer to the points you have made I never said not to save I merely pointed out that the people who placed their cash with the likes of KSF were after a higher rate therefore accepted a higher risk and had nothing to do with the spend spend spend rhetoric you mentioned. Obviously you missed this in your eagerness to reply and or missed the financial point I was trying to get across. As for your point about the UK tax payer I totally agree but I think this bares no relation to the Island economy. I agree the UK is well over taxed not only by income tax which I think is similar but the affect of local Council Tax is much much higher. But please don't forget that there are cheaper everyday items, such as petrol bread and milk to just name three off the top of my head, so don't shout so much as you my get the petrol brigade after you. My whole point was that the Island Tax payer is having to support something that the Banking industry, that is lauded by Tynwald so highly, should be coffing up and not the Tax Payer. I think that CW will agree that this should be the case. If CW's figures are correct and that every Banking licence carries a 500K a year donation to the compensation scheme then where has all that cash gone? If the UK Government had of handled the situation with the Icelandic banking system then this may have been settled a lot sooner. Why does the Manx tax payer have to cover the incompetence of Governments? Also Peter, the UK taxpayer isn't covering the incompetence of their Government when dealing with a massive unauthorised loan. For reference to this see the thread on the MEA. I hope I have explained a little about my rant, plus I feel that my points are valid ones.
SUNDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2008 00:44: Hi Anon What a strange name - my real one is at the end of this message. Hi CW - also a strange name! I take it that you, ANON, don't save money - don't criticise CW for being a saver. It's a simple fact, if people don't save money, then any economy will collapse - the law of economics depends upon lending and borrowing. CW was attracted, like many others, to a higher interest rate because savers are very tired of funding the "spend, spend" rhetoric of the left wing government that controls the British Isles and was only seeking to find a decent return for his (or hers) willingness to save for a later day in life and not "to live for today" at the expense of others! With regards to you being a poor tax payer - trying living in the UK! I have a daughter working in the UK, on a minimum rate well below ours, and on a tax rate well above ours!
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 25, 2008 17:47: As some of you say, the worst is not over yet,some people keep saying that it can't drop down to a bad recession,in the pink paper with the Examiner there is one example of keep talking the problems up,and on the back page its all doom and gloom. Fridays date the 24th October is a date in history,yet no TV news station has mentioned it as far as I can tell,its 79 years to the day when the crash happened on Wall Street 1929.
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 24, 2008 14:56: ANON I can see the reasoning behind your comments stating that people only deposited the funds there because of the high rates unfortunately greed comes naturally to many, however I trust you weren't tarring all S&F depositors with the same brush? Granted my choice to deposit with S&F was swayed by the high rate but that wasn't my only reason for putting my small savings there. The option for internet banking and the fact I had received good feedback from friends who held money there were also big factors. Admittedly a little greed on my behalf was also a factor.
As for your comment "... and here was me thinking that the depositors compensation scheme was fully covered by the banks on the Island..."
Don't quote me on this as I may be wrong but I think the banks do fund the depositors compensation scheme as they have to pay the FSC 500,000 a year to cover such shortfalls and that is why the IOM compensation scheme will only offer up to 50K as to offer any more would require the government to draw on public funds.
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 24, 2008 13:42: I just can not believe that us poor tax payers are bailing out the greed of some of these people. As any financial advisor would tell you any deposit or anything that forms an investment will carry a risk. These people decided to deposit funds with a bank that the finance sector was warning about months before and decided not to act on it. They were also placing their cash there due to a few points better on the rate, in other words they were wanting more cash back ... greed. Why not have placed it with a bank like so many other people in this world, that actually is secure an gives you less on your cash but has a little more security. Now we, the tax payers are going to have to fork out our hard earned cash just because they want some back. I have enough money worries with the increase in fuel costs, gas prices and also the cost of paying back the millions lost in the MEA fiasco, now we have to do it all again because of this. Now we also learn that our Government placed a load of cash with them as well... I notice that didn't come out at the start of all this, I wounder if they were hoping they could get away with not telling anyone before the Icelandic government paid all the depositors back? Well caught with your pants down may just apply to Allan Bell and his cronies in the Treasury over this ..... so what is he going to do for the tax payer in all of this? yeh thats right put us squarely in the firing line ... and here was me thinking that the depositors compensation scheme was fully covered by the banks on the Island...
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 24, 2008 12:19: It's so easy to complain that the depositor's compensation scheme is a joke. Granted I agree that it must seem like a slap across the face to have had 1 million and be told that you can only have 50K returned. I personally have only lost approx 3000 and I will eventually get all my money back. So I am quite lucky compared to other larger investors but bear in mind this 3000 was a lot for me personally and I am not making light of the situation in any way! However people need to take several things into account.
Many with you are no doubt going to disagree with what I say and I ask that I don't receive any sarcastic answers as I will not respond to them. Firstly why is the IOM depositor's compensation scheme so small?
As a small island with lots of large net worth clients (individuals not businesses) offshore where can we possibly obtain enough money to cover everybody's losses? we would have to draw funds from public services etc. (please correct me if I am wrong I don't claim to have an in depth knowledge of exactly how it works)
Secondly people need to take a little personal accountability. Lots of people (myself included) saw the attractive rate offered by S&F and rushed to deposit their money into this high interest account. The government did not force you to put your money there, businesses go bust all the time and we have just been unlucky that our money was there at this particular time.
I will admit more could have been done by many people government/bankers etc but we really need to learn from our mistakes pick up the pieces and start again.
(I will again reiterate the fact that I am expressing my PERSONAL OPINION I will only respond to reasonable counter comments and not sarcastic or unreasonable or personal remarks)
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 24, 2008 10:29: The major piece on channel 4 news last night showed the Isle of Man in a pretty bad light – yet more bad publicity – and no time limit on the compensation scheme – fantastic!- it seems the whole British Isles offshore 'industry' is now living on borrowed time – if that hasn't convinced people to move their money out of here I don't know what will. Some people (if you include head bankers in that description) over here are still trying to claim the crisis is over. Wake up folks this is act one and just the start, whole countries are starting to wobble. It'll be interesting to see how the 'well placed', diversified Manx economy fairs as the banking sector goes down the tubes. The level of complacency over here remains breathtaking – turnips or pumpkins anyone?.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 23, 2008 12:12: Here Here anon. Agree 100%. The iom does have all its eggs in one basket and once the offshore finance industry is no longer a pull there will be nothing left. The island's finance industry is run through London and that's how its always going to be. Go independent, don't make us all laugh. Its far easier to have a blame culture and use the UK gov as a 'scapegoat'. This is far easier to do than actually face up to the responsibility that should be taken to ensure this never happens again. Trust is lost. The FSC guaranteeing up to 50,000 to depositors who has lost in excess up to 850 million in total is ludicrous and no more than a drop in the ocean to these depositors. Who by the way are mostly living in foreign lands. And why blame the UK govt for the collapse of an Icelandic bank, where do Iceland stand in all of this? The island wouldn't have a leg to stand on without banks (never mind whichever way you throw me ...)finance is what made the island what it is. What's left?
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 23, 2008 11:37: In response to AC. If the UK hadn't bailed out RBS, HBOS and all of the other damaged banks, their subsidiaries would have collapsed over here in pretty short order. Your depositor guarantee scheme over here is a joke – nobody in their right mind would keep money here – it is in no way equivalent to the UK scheme – it could take years to get your money back here. An awful lot of banking jobs are going to go in the next few months anyway so The Isle of Man will need all the help it can get. You haven't got a diversified economy – you have all your eggs in one basket. Even your estate agents at long last are admitting the market has slowed – which in normal human language is your house prices are going to fall off a cliff pretty soon. I've no doubt the UK will have to bail out the banks once again further down the line.
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 22, 2008 20:51: Dear Sir,
Perhaps in view of this latest fiasco involving the UK government, who clearly have no interest in what they probably see as little island in the Irish Sea of no consequence, and no voters to upset, is it not time to once again re-consider the obvious benefits of complete autonomy of the Isle of Man from the UK?
According to the charter, all the UK provides the island is defence, and authority to act on behalf of the Isle of Man in foreign matters. Well in this case the "diplomacy" or lack of same of the UK government may well cost the Isle of Man Government, and therefore the tax and rate payer, millions of pounds in lost savings, in addition to the lost savings of 10,000 or so residents. Of what value is the so called "Common Purse" agreement in this context? It is also highly unlikely that a foreign invader will one day sail the Irish Sea to take over the entire island of 75,000 or so people, and even if there was a serious danger of anything of that sort happening, the UK would defend the island in the interests of its own security as a close neighbour.
The positives are too numerous to mention, but we could start by abolishing VAT for parity with the Channel Isles, set our own bank interest rates and savings guarantees, and purchase fuel minus the tax which constitutes the majority of the price of fuel, so the government could set its own tax on fuel. Perhaps then we could purchase fuel at the same price as Channel Island residents.
The very least the government could do in view of this latest debacle is to hold a referendum for autonomy.
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 21, 2008 03:20: SOLD OUT BY HM GOVERNMENT: After being the primary cause of the Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander (IoM) collapse the UK Government is washing its hands of the issue. 1000's of British savers have lost their life savings after comments from Darling and the actions on Icelandic banks caused the collapse of Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander on the Isle of Man. Many of these savers have now been thrown into poverty and are finding day-to-day living impossible. This is deplorable and every person involved with the running of the British Government should hang their head in shame. These are not scroungers, not tax evaders, not greedy fat cats. These are decent, hard working, tax paying individuals who have now lost everything through absolutely no fault of their own. The weight of responsibility rests firmly with the British Government, who have demonstrated their indifference and callous attitude to these individuals already. However, the 'petition rejection' and reasons given just add insult to injury. When a reply like that is received after your child offers you a 'found' (taken from a supermarket bin) orange because 'daddy is hungry and sad' – currently in a foreign country with a total of 23 to our name and no state support - the level of anger is quite indescribable.
Hi,I'm sorry to inform you that your petition has been rejected.
Your petition was classed as being in the following categories:
* Outside the remit or powers of the Prime Minister and
If you wish to edit and resubmit your petition, please follow
the following link:
You have four weeks in which to do this, after which your
petition will appear in the list of rejected petitions.
Your petition reads:
We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to: 'provide
safe banking for all British Citizens'
I urge the British government to provide access to all British
Citizens a safe banking environment, this includes all British
citizens that live overseas. The failure of Kaupthing (IOM) has
emphasised how little overseas citizens are looked after
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 21, 2008 02:48: Invite for statement from Alistair Darling: Sir, In light of the human disaster that appears to be unfolding in the wake of the Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander (IoM) bank collapse, the bank depositors formally request a statement from Mr Alistair Darling in his capacity as Chancellor of the Exchequer for the United Kingdom.
It has become evident that the collapse was wholly due to the comments made by Mr Darling concerning the Icelandic government's statement that it would not honour its commitments to UK citizens and the actions taken by HM government in regard to Icelandic assets in the UK. However, the statement cannot be found, the Icelandic ambassador to the UK denies the statement was made and the UK treasury has been unable to name the source of the comment made to Mr Darling. Could the honourable Chancellor clarify how and where the comment about Iceland not honouring its commitments came from?
Secondly, many British citizens are now finding themselves in great financial hardship after losing very large sums of their savings and in some cases being thrown into a state of poverty. Could the honourable gentleman clarify the UK governments position concerning these citizens and how that stands with the repeated statements from HM government that no UK citizen will lose if their bank collapses.
Finally, could the Chancellor state whether he, or any member of HM Government, considers the Isle of Man a terrorist supporting nation or the Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander depositors members of terrorist organisations.
The reply to this correspondence will be posted on a public page within the www.ksfiomdepositors.com website and I urge the Chancellor to read the 'Your Stories' section of the website to gain an understanding of the current human disaster unfolding for these British Citizens.
MONDAY, OCTOBER 20, 2008 19:44: Sir, The IOM Government seems to have learnt very little in all the years since the collapse of the Savings & Investment bank in 1982, in which I was a depositor. It is uncanny, reading the accounts of what has transpired, the similarities between the two events. The FSC appears to have falsely given people confidence in a banking system, that everything would henceforth since 1982 be secure. Their confidence has been shattered by the turn of events.
The investor protection system should be based upon monies derived from all of the other banks, contributing into the depositors refund in an amount directly proportional to their capitalisation value. The tax payer should not be called upon. This payout would replace depositors funds in the case of a bank going into liquidation, which have been lost. After all, it seems that Alan Bell is boasting IOM Banks are holding some 54 billions. The contributions from all of the other banks should be obligatory, as a condition of their holding a banking license. These days, 50,000 is not a huge sum. Many people have much more than 50,000. The upper limit could easily be set to 250,000.
MONDAY, OCTOBER 20, 2008 12:34: wooah woah concerned
you have read it wrong i said i feel sorry for mat - i truly do -i read his letter im not stupid it explained exactly what he was doing. It was after i had typed that - that i then said all those who hoard money should spend it and enjoy it if i could help mat out i would - ill be in sydney in february - hope things have settled for you mat by then - keep us posted please as there are some genuine concerns and you are top of the list im sure - what happened to mat in such a short time is terrible so concerned - please dont think i was having a go at mat - i wasnt. mat i am worried about you being in aussie and not knowing anyone at this terrible time and no money.
MONDAY, OCTOBER 20, 2008 12:08: Mat in Australia was not hoarding his money in an off-shore bank as a 'dodgy investment scheme'. He simply put money from his house sale in a temporary place while he moved to Australia. He can't spend it on holidays as it is needed to house his family! It is appalling that the 'macho' actions of a bullying British Prime Minister can destroy a perfectly good bank on the Isle of Man, drag the island's good name through the mire and utterly ruin many people's lives. I am aghast at the stories of hardship and wish the depositors every good fortune in getting their savings back. The Isle of Man has a long and distinguished history of helping others and we must not fail to press our government to do something before an awful tragedy results.
MONDAY, OCTOBER 20, 2008 08:01: mat in aussie - i do feel sorry for you
Can i please ask a reasonable question - no sarcastic answers please - why do people have so much money invested in such wild schemes why not in an ordinary bank like IOM bank also what do these people do with the money - just look at it and worry about the interest rates ?????
this wont suit all people but i have a little in the bank and i spend the rest on holidays every year i go to aussie or new zealand and have done for 33 years and have just come back from 3 weeks in spain and off to nz again soon i enjoy what money i have and everyone says to me WOW you are lucky and i say but anyone can do it most have so much invested then worry about it and why not have a emergency fund say 6,000 and ENJOY the rest with wonderful holidays it is to late when it all gone kapunk with a bank and far far to late when you are in a wheelchair and WISH you had done this and done that i am in my 50's AND TELL YOU - enjoy your money folks - spend it - have fun it cant be much fun waking in the mornings worrying if you have any left in your investments cus one day you were going to do such and such with it
enjoy it - travel and see the world this is not a sarcastic letter it is a note to tell people enjoy life. We cant take money with us
but sounds by these letters that most of you are going to die of heart attacks with worry i have 33 years of laughs and photos so please folks enjoy the world out there and stop hoarding money - spend some and laugh and live
SUNDAY, OCTOBER 19, 2008 20:40: In your article David Cannan MHK states :
'We are not looking to help the big businesses because they should be able to look after their own money.'
Actually in the Isle of Man we have a thing called the FSC paid for by the taxpayer to supervise and regulate Banks and make sure things do not go wrong. On that we have a Director of Kaupthing S&F we have an ex RBS Bank manager who took very early retirement a person appointed almost certainly because he had worked for many years for the World Bank, slight problem there was that he was actually in their PR department and so it goes on... Maybe that is why even now we have no legally binding parent company guarantees covering the likes of Barclays RBSI and Nationwide. Also is there no control with the amount of deposits they place with their parent company Look at Nationwide :
Funds placed with parent company 2,750,173 2,056,957
ie ALL their gross assets!
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 18, 2008 16:50: Whilst not wishing to join the "I told you so" brigade. Do you think the lack of response could be down to lack of expertise from our elected hopelesses. They are quite at home pocketing money for little or no real work, but the minute a sad and sorry financial mess hits their doorstep – deafening silence. I am a firm believer in having elected representatives with:- a) A university education to degree level, b) a business degree and proven experience in politics. It is all well and good voting for young "whatsisname" because you have known the family for years, but when you need sound leadership and expertise this is what happens. Look around you people this is the end result. I don't think for one minute that this will sound the death knell for finance but it sure as hell must act as a wake up call.
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 18, 2008 16:14: So Donald Gelling is blaming the U.K for the bank collapse, If it wasn't for the UK Bradford & Bingley RBS and HBOS here on the island would have gone under. I suggest he stops meddling in something he knows nothing about ,And let someone else sort the mess out .If it was wasn't for the UK we would be in bigger trouble, Think what it would be like if those three big banks had gone under.
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 18, 2008 14:22: I deposited the majority of my saving's in a fixed term deposit account with KSF.Now Iam reading that the FSC does not cover depositor;s who have taken out a bond?Could anyone answer me who knows if this is true or not as Iam somewhat uncertain? Thanks,
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 18, 2008 10:42: What I find most amazing about the whole situation is that the UK has frozen the KSF IOM money that has been sent by the IOM subsidiary to the UK subsidiary to help pay for the UK's compensation scheme. In effect this is 21th century piracy as we the Isle of Man depositors are now financing the generous protection scheme in the UK while not being covered sufficiently our selves. How can we expect the UK to represent the IOM fairly in such a situation when they are clearly not acting in the interest of the IOM. I suspect the KSF failure has been ceased by the UK government as an opportunity to destroy offshore banking in the Islands
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 18, 2008 10:04: The last few posts are getting to see just how this so-called government can handle things when faced with the rest of the world looking on. These 24 MHKs and 9 MLCs have had,together with their predecessors a soft job with their noses in the trough for long enough,they meet once a week mainly Tuesdays and Wednesdays three times a month for the House of Keys,and once a month for Tynwald,the rest of the time a few committees,(this is in between all the long holidays they get,)maybe go and see some of their constituents,some work hard at it,but some you never see till election time,which is in three years time,they have had two years this November,and as most people will have seen when this emergency Tynwald was called,all that turned up were on the repeater course,asking the same questions and with not the right answers. Maybe the time has come to call time on this,and lets have one MP at Westminster,with all the benefits of choice of gas/electric/telephone competition,and full membership of the European Union with all the grants to improve the lot of the people of a poor country,which we will become if this crowd of no-hopers can't get their act together.
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 18, 2008 08:58: The UK government should nationalize the entire island banking and all. You'll be bankrupt before long anyway; I'm sure no one in their right mind would keep deposits in the Isle of Man right now or any other offshore centre.
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 18, 2008 08:20: I'm amazed that still nothing seems to be happening on the IOM regarding the Kaupthing fiasco. However it seems plenty is happening in the UK and the rest of the world. Stories about just how safe it really is to bank in the IOM are appearing in the UK weekend papers, and on web sites. Unfortunately these stories will be available for years online for anyone who cares to Google "IOM Banks" when looking for a safe place to deposit their money. There are also reports on the BBC and Channel 4 and national radio, of course these too can be viewed and listened to around the world. What is even more surprising is that the IOM government has 2 million lost in Kaupthing, yet they seem to be happy to leave it to the UK to sort out the problem for them. I'm sure the IOM savers who have lost money, and the ex financial workers there will remember this sorry period when voting time comes.
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 17, 2008 20:39: The Isle of Man is coming in for a lot of criticism as a finance centre. Every day this week there has been a programme on TV or radio about the KS&F bank collapse, implying that the island is a very unsafe place to put your money. Thursday's Border News painted a particularly bad image, referring to past bank collapses and inadequate regulation. These programmes have either no government response or a totally inadequate one, as given by Tony Brown on Tuesday's Channel 4 News. The KS&F depositors have been given very little information and are turning to the media for help. This Sunday the papers are likely to carry more critical stories. Our government must get a grip on the situation and on news management in today's global 24 hour news environment. The island's international image is deteriorating fast and with it will go our finance industry, which has funded the island's recent low personal tax, good public services regime – jobs will be lost and house prices will tumble. The Tynwald meeting on 21st October is loaded with MHK questions about the banking system and is likely to attract media attention; I hope that this is managed better for all our sakes.
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 17, 2008 17:48: Tony brown is failing miserably in his role as a 'leader of the people' of the IOM. The very future economic viability of the Island in regards of the banking sector which is so vital to the economy is now in question. After the collapse of the Savings and Investment Bank in 1982, the FSC was created specifically to ensure that nothing similar to this EVER happened again. Now the 'chips are down' the IOM authorities are simply running scared and by doing so are putting the financial well being of every resident on the Island at risk. Governments around the world, including the UK, have come to the rescue of investors in their own territories, but the IOM is doing nothing more than creating a smoke-screen by handing negotiations over the the UK treasury, discussing increasing the compensation provisions etc etc etc. Clearly this has the sole intention of devolving themselves of responsibility. Come on Tynwald, wake up and smell the coffee - stand proud and underwrite the investments of those private individuals who have trusted you to look after their deposits. It's not just a few millions at stake here - it's the entire financial well being of the IOM.
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 17, 2008 13:55: Does anyone know where is the ubiquitous Mr Alan Bell, IoM Finance Minister? He was always so keen on telling everyone how well the Manx economy was doing, that it now seems strange he appears to have gone to ground. Is there an embargoe on him making any utterance. Come on Mr Bell, let's have some regular public statements on what YOU are doing for those depositors on whom the wealth of the IoM economy is founded.
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 17, 2008 12:17: Ive been reading about how in the 70s an IOM bank went bust and savers lost everything, and also how it took 20 years for savers to get compensation after the BCCI collapse. Now another bank has collapsed on the IOM, and no one seems to be doing a thing other than blaming one another.
The leaders on the IOM need to wake up, the world has changed. Yes this is a global problem, but banking is a global industry. With satellite TV and the internet, the world is reading and watching the IOM. There must be millions of people worldwide looking for safe places to keep their money, both now and after this is all over. If the IOM wants to be considered a safe financial centre, then they have to follow Ireland the UK and others to guarantee 100% of savers money now. Nationalise Kaupthing and pay back savers their money now. You can go through the courts later to get the money from the UK or Iceland. Allegedly, money is now flooding into Irish banks as people look for a safe haven.
I can only guess with all the stories of depositors like me loosing money in the IOM, there must be millions heading off the IOM to safe banks. This wont be forgotten soon, carry on like this and the IOM wont have any financial businesses.
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 17, 2008 11:20: I seem to recall that Donald Gelling was viewed as significantly lacking in financial acumen when public inquiries into the MEA fiasco and Mount Murray fiasco were undertaken. But, in fairness to that man, I believe he accepted that financial matters were not a strength! So why was he invited to help steer the Board of a (failed) Bank?
P.S. Is there anyone out there that can get me onto the Non-Executive Directors' club circuit? I can guarantee not to ask any searching questions, not to demonstrate board leadership and definitely not to get to grips with the business and what it is all about. Furthermore, I can be available for every onerous company organised complimentary free meal, function, charity ball, photo opportunity, theatre visit, overseas trips ............etc.,..etc., My wife will also make herself constantly available to attend at my side.
Be assure my motto is "Wheresoever you send me, I will make the very best out of it" or "Quocunque jeceris stabit"
Yours merely to serve
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 17, 2008 08:14: (Editor's note: What follows is a copy of an email sent to the Tynwald offices) While you have your debate could i possibly ask that some thought it given to the families and people involved. Our family had recently moved to Australia. We had spent 25 years saving and being very careful with our money. We had never gambled, never played the stock market and had never done anything risky with our life's savings. I had recently opened an account with KSF (IOM) so that we could transfer the savings there before transferring to Australia. We had to use the IOM as we could not open an 'onshore' account with no UK address. As money here was about to run out, and we'd decided as a family to stay, the money was to be all transferred here. On Wednesday 8th Oct 2008 I phoned KSF to ensure that I would be able to do a telegraphic transfer. This was confirmed and the codeword verified and so, with the family watching and excited I bought 150000 worth of Australian dollars and faxed the telegraphic transfer instruction to KSF. That evening the whole family was excited. The next day, the Ozforex account said that it was still awaiting funds. This wasn't right. I spent 5 horrible hours trying to phone KSF with no joy. Then I heard my wife. When my wife came into the room there was total terror in her eyes. Guys, i have never had the feeling in my stomach i had at that moment. My wife, said she had heard that KSF had stopped trading and that IoM customers had lost everything. Then she cried. Since then everything each hour brings more horribleness. We have run out of money. Literally. The neighbours filled our fridge for us and made some comforting noises but that was a week ago. Although we rationed the food (something i can only say is heartbreaking) it is almost finished. When my wife gave me her potato because 'better you keep your strength up' i could have died right there. But right now I just want to end it all; they are out getting toilet paper from the public loo's nearby, and that is just killing me. Rent is due on this place (a small cheap rental we got) in two weeks. We have exactly $87.57c in the whole world. We are not the only ones. I know there are others with equally scary and sad stories; but i don't have the luxury of being able to think about them. I cannot stress how much this has affected us. We went from sensible, comfortable, hard working to having to ration food to our family, steal toilet paper and try to work out what we will do to keep a roof over us. This is happening now; not in 10 days or 6 months or a year, but now. Right now. Tonight i shall walk down to the shops and see if i can get some veggies from the shop bin – something i thought I'd never have to do. I am so frightened. Please help us. Not in a years time but now. I beg you, please help. Please think of us in your meeting.
MAT WALKER, Australia
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 17, 2008 08:00: Did Mr Cashin have a portion of his salary deducted as he had to absent himself from any meetings or discussions involving the myriad of companies he is involved with, outside of the most high profile case of the recent bank collapse? As Deputy Head of the FSC one would assume Mr Cashin would be aware of one of its most strongly held and enforced views, simply as the FSC forcefully points out to the entities it supervises, directors duties in the main include having an ongoing awareness of the affairs of the company and its activities. An over exposure of its parent companies loan book would seem a fairly relevant fact for a director to be aware of. It is constantly preached to the Island's financial community that "the buck stops with the director" . Why is this case different? Mr Cashin, or indeed Mr Aspden, who seems so eager to defend his colleague, please feel free to respond. Additionally, do the other members of the FSC offer a portion of their salary back as there are a number of regulated Island companies they cannot fulfil their employment criteria to due to their involvement in the day-to-day affairs of the company, as evidenced by your list of directorates held by FSC members.
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 17, 2008 07:52: The strength of the FSC comes from the fact that it is run by people with a real hand in the businesses which are being regulated. In other jurisdictions where the regulators are managed by people with little experience in the market they are regulating, the regulator becomes detached from the reality of business operation. Far from being an "old boys club", the ability to appoint regulators from the best personnel of private organisations leaves it with a higher calibre of individual. Regardless, I don't see that any IoM regulator could have regulated the business in Kaupthing's headquarters in Reykjavik and avoided the current crisis. Almost all of our financial institutions lie at the mercy of parent companies abroad. Perhaps this should be a separate thread?
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2008 17:05: Premier jurisdiction? I think not. What other jurisdiction has as the Chairman of one regulator (IPA) a director of a failed Bank, and the other regulator has the Deputy Chairman who was a director of a failed Bank. Makes this jurisdiction a laughing stock in the international community. The Finance Minister should be rectifying this perception, how? The two ex directors of Kaupthing might be asked to resign from their regulatory posts, also the FSC should take action to withdraw their approval for both to carry other directorships of financial institutions. If either of these gentlemen had any integrity, they would have resigned already from other directorships they hold and from their regulatory posts. Any consideration in the future of either of these gentlemen carrying directorships should be contingent upon them passing "recognised" professional qualifications, a good FSC phrase.
The Chief Executive of the Treasury might consider initiating an enquiry into the relevant protagonists in the line at the FSC. Are the CEO of FSC, Head of Supervision and Banking Supervisor competent and capable of continuing in their posts. At least one of these "musketeers" if not all should be seen to be resigning, even if it is to show the world that this jurisdiction has at least accountability.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2008 15:48: Not only is totally wrong a that a Board Member should have any connection with a financial institution that is under its supervision but also their employees should be banned from taking up employment in the sector after leaving the FSA employ for sometime...say two years. The Board member gains access to informatiion of other institutions that are, necessarily, in competition to the one who may employ him. Likewise the employees of the FSA, only they have greater access to more information.
Take for example the supervision visits where a great deal of information has to be disclosed (although for what purpose one can only guess). It has already occurred that a member of the FSA staff direclty involved in a visit to such a business on behalf of the FSA, and with the access to all records and private details, left the FSA employ the week following the visit and immediately commenced employment with a rival business. Whilst in no way stating or implying that there was any breach of confidence or trust in this instance, can this be right and does it appear to be right?
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2008 12:58: Anyone who needs information or support following the collapse of KSF IoM should visit:
You'll find a whole host of us in the same position.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2008 10:54: Please can any one advise what is the status of Singer and Friedlander Investment Management (IOM) Ltd. that operates from Samuel Harris House , 5-11 St George street, Douglas. I understand it is a separate legal entity from Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander (Isle of man) Ltd. which has been placed under a Provisional liquidation order. We have our life time savings invested in a nominee account discretionary portfolio comprising equities and hedge funds and fixed interests in this Company. We cannot contact anyone on phone in Isle of Man regarding this Company and the internet valuation cannot be accessed anymore. On 13 October it was reported that "A sister company of KSF (IoM) Ltd, Singer & Friedlander Investment Management Ltd is still trading but its board have been informed by the administrator of KSF London that it is seeking a buyer." What would be its impact on the IOM sister company ? How can we transfer our funds at this stage? Is it advisable to transfer the portfolio to a different company now, if possible, Or await till a Buyer to take over? Should one trust offshore companies anymore? Any help , guidance shall be appreciated.
FAR EASTERN INVESTOR
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2008 10:31: MALC Wrong actually. The Queen is Lord of Mann all the time but that's just feudal history and irrelevant. The Queen is the Island's head of state only when in Privy Councul and either taking her Prime Minister's advice or herself cautioning or encouraging the Government of the day. She might on occasions sign an Order in Council extending some law or other to the Island but unless Crown or UK interests are at stake this is not done unless the Island requests it. The Queen now only signs Manx laws when she is actually on the Island at a sitting of Tynwald either at Fairfield or the House itself. The Royal Assent is now appended by a Privy Council official.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2008 09:33: More pressure is being heaped upon the Isle of Man government to announce 100% protection for depositors investing in the islands banking sector. Several action groups have been set up by disgruntled investors who have lost their entire lifes savings. The IOM government claim to be concerned but have done little to help the plight of 10's of thousands of investors. The Isle of Man government seem quite content to allow one of the islands major banks, Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander, to go under without so much as a struggle. With the Isle of Man being one of the few places in the world that have not implemented any banking safety measures, the island is fast becoming a no-go area for individual and business money. Many are looking to move their money to where they consider it is safer. The view is better to move it or they may lose it.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2008 09:32: The Queen is Head of the IOM State. Thus the Prime Minister & UK Government has a duty to protect the interests of British Citizens who have had no option but to invest in an off-shore bank. If necessary HM Government should seek the nationalisation of all IOM financial institutions that are unable to guarantee the trust put in them & promise everyone who deposited money in KFS that every penny will be restored to them, if necessary through the help of the UK Treasury. After this debacle the future of off-shore banking is doomed, so all on-shore banks should be required to extend to all ex-Pats the option of opening accounts with them.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2008 09:30: The Isle of Man's reputation as the worlds premier offshore financial centre has been left in tatters after the collapse of one of the islands biggest banks, Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander, with the loss of 100's of millions of pounds for depositors. Unlike the governments around the world, who have stood firmly behind the banking sector, providing 100% guarantees for investors deposits, the Isle of Man government has apparently adopted the 'ostrich' approach and buried its head in the sand, hoping the crisis will go away. Long used as a 'hook' to encourage investors, the depositors protection scheme, which was supposed to protect investors in the event of a financial institution going bust, has proved totally inadequate, leaving tens of thousands of investors facing total financial ruin.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2008 00:41: The Poacher AND Gamekeeper Golly - I've heard of Poacher turned Gamekeeper, but never of being paid as both Poacher and Gamekeeper at the same time ! But John Cashen appears as a Director of KSF (IoM) and on the Financial Service Commission Board of Governors at one and the same time ! He used to be a civil servant as Head of IoM Government Finance, responsible for Treasury Advice on levels of Depositor Compensation. How on earth can one expect absolute impartiality and independence from the FSC when it is ruled by the people it is meant to be "supervising" ? Is this the final clue that IoM is just too much of an old boys network? Of course, I knew that Donald Gelling (ex IoM Chief Minister) was also a KSF Director. BUT there is such a thing as a "conflict of interest". That means you can't be both poaching game and directing the strategy for gamekeepers to catch the poachers at one and the same time. It may be "a small island" with people doing more than one job, but that still does not mean that sound, proven, ethical business standards are just ignored. This is simply unethical, bad practice and bad governance. Mr Cashen at least should have had the decency to come to the Gaiety - as he could have represented both The Failed Bank & The Regulator. It would have saved Messrs Doherty & Aspden from both having to turn up. I hope others agree that this state of affairs is absolutely disgraceful.
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 15, 2008 12:23: Having watched The isle of Man banking fiasco on channel 4 last night and just listened to the quite damning report just now on BBC Radio 4 'you and yours', manx politicians better start getting their act together. A totally inadequate compensation scheme that may take years to pay out – get real. Any outsider listening to that definitely won't invest in this place now and I can't blame them. Talk of this economy being strong enough to weather the recession is ludicrous and almost as ludicrous as the house prices over here. The amount of money which is walking out of this place on a daily basis must be incredible. Will the last one out please turn off the lights.
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 15, 2008 11:34: Editor's note: Online debate on offshore banking now live
>> iomtoday event - Future for Offshore Banking?
Editor's note: Click the following link to find out about today's (October 15) Radio 4 show debating the future of offshore accounts and have your say with our new online debating feature
>> Radio 4 show to debate future of offshore accounts
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 15, 2008 06:15: The people and Government of the Isle of Man share a common future with Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander depositors who have had their accounts frozen last week. My wife and I, a retired couple in Australia, watched in horror as the KSFIOM web site shut down, leaving us nearly penniless. Are the people and Government of the Isle of Man aware that the future of the Isle of Man banking industry depends on depositors having full access to the entire amount of their deposits? Anything less will undermine confidence in the Isle of Man as a safe banking destination and may very likely mean the end of the banking industry there. Our futures are very much joined together. Let us hope that Mr Simpson, the Liquidator Provisional, will be successful in finding a buyer for KSFIOM's deposit book. Short of that, we ask that the Isle of Man guarantee the entire value of our deposits, as other responsible governments have done for their depositors and for the welfare of their banking industries.
Our thoughts and prayers are with the people and Government of the Isle of Man in this trying hour. Best wishes,
>>PREVIOUS COMMENTS: PAGE 2TUESDAY, OCTOBER 14, 2008 18:26: I think the time has come for those of us who are fortunate enough not to be at risk regarding KSF (IOM) to keep our thoughts and opinions to ourselves. I can't believe that KSF customers want to read posts from others who think they know better and with a 'told you so' attitude, even when said with proper intentions.
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 14, 2008 17:47: The manner in which the Island Government is handling this matter is quite simply disgraceful. Do they not realise that a significant proportion of the Islands future income is at stake here ? If depositors in KSF loose even one penny of their savings, trust in the Island's banking system will evaporate overnight. Also, surely there is something very, very wrong when the Deputy Governor of the Island's regulatory body turns out to be the very same man serving as a director of KSF !!! Not quite sure what charges could be bought in this respect, (legal, moral or otherwise) but this must surely in some way be a crime along the lines of insider dealing or something ? What I am sure of however, is that unless the Island Government grab hold of this situation in the next few days and at last take some decisive action to protect the livelihoods of those private individuals who trusted them with their life savings, the Island can well and truly wave goodbye to it's financial future as NOBODY would ever be stupid enough to ever again make the same mistake twice !
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 14, 2008 17:30: For goodness sake Barrie Stevens, I've rarely seen anyone act in such a disingenuous manner. You purport to be offering the good folk here help and advice, whilst sprinkling it with barbed comments and poisonous innuendo. As I've posted earlier you've made your views on the "tax evaders" who use our offshore banks abundantly clear here: http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2007/11/20/the-isle-of-man-200-billion-of-tax-evaded-funds/ .So move along Mr Stevens, there's nothing more for you to relish here.
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 14, 2008 16:19: PJ. Despite some accusations I am not rubber-necking a road smash and am not new to this as I have been writing and oft-times broadcasting in the Island on finance matters, regulations and associated developments with often dire warnings since 1999. This accounts for reference to my many hundreds of letters. Manx Government (Treasury) even tried to put me off writing for the paper that runs this website. Not feeling better just saw something coming...but not this monster!
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas.
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 14, 2008 15:45: Sirs, As depositors who have just lost all our life savings, I would just like to say what a shame it is that all Isle Of Man Accounts do not carry a Barrie Stevens Health Warning - like a packet of cigarettes! Some of his comments may have made him feel better, but did nothing for our morale. We opened our account some years ago with the Derbyshire - you all know the rest. At this moment in time we KSFIOM losers feel very alone, and need all the Governments & Institutions to do the right thing & find an equitable solution to this.
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 14, 2008 15:37: Does anyone remember,or like myself,lost their savings,when Kingsnorth bank (Manx Ltd.) went bust in the 1980's. The present financial crisis has brought it all back to me,not that I ever got over it,or forgave those concerned.
The bank was in Atholl Street and moved mysteriously to Anguilla. It went into liquidation just a few months later after moving.
Some ten years later,after telling us that we would get 100% of our money back,then 75%,then 50%,in drips and drabs, we received 28% total.
The IOM government was asked by the liquidators to extend their SIB payment scheme to cover Kingsnorth but as KN had just left the island,they refused. KN apparently,was being investigated by the IOM Government as they left for Anguilla. However, I have a copy letter from the IOM office of the C/Secretary, to the liquidators,stating,and I quote,"the regulatory authority on the island was misled and disobeyed by the directors of Kingsnorth"
If this was the case,why were the depositors not warned so that they could have withdrawn their money. At least one of the directors lives on the Island and I hope he is proud of himself.
I ask myself so many questions about how this might have been avoided,even after all this time. I am aware that most of the unfortunate depositors were from off Island,but if anyone has suffered because of this,or has any information,please reply on this website,and I am sure we could arrange to make contact.
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 14, 2008 14:35: Just read Mr Stevens 'reply' of 13/10/08 14:32. I have tried to keep my comments constructive, general and applicable to all private depositors of failed banks whatever their jurisdiction but since you press me on the matter-I am Guernsey born and bred. My family have been in the Channel Islands for hundreds of years so I have no UK relatives in my family history, I even have a stamp in my 'British' passport stating that 'the holder has no right of abode, establishment or employement in the UK or EEC'. I do not have legitimate access to a UK address and so on honestly supplying my residential address have been advised by many organisations that they are unable to provide the services I require as I am a non-UK resident. So to answer your question-NO I don't have a choice. My Mother likend the situaton to the British Government's 'support' during the German Occupation-I'd elaborate but I doubt it would be printed. So going forward-can we keep to the point? If Depositors fail regain access to their entire funds I have no doubt that this will be the begining of the end for all under-capitalised Offshore centres. The remaining Banks and IOM Authorities should think long and hard about the effect on all of their reputations and ensure that we are all reimbursed 100%.
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 14, 2008 14:23: I am a depositor of the failed KSF IOM bank. I have lost over 800k, my complete life's saving, pension, holiday, and education funds for my entire family.
Whilst no one can deny that the actions of Gordon Brown and HM Treasury in guaranteeing ALL of the depositor's money in the KSF bank, the situation for the Isle of Man depositors is not rosy at all.
Where does this leave the Isle of Man as an offshore tax haven? Clearly depositors will no longer flock to the isle to deposit their hard earned cash. What future can the Isle of Man aspire to have if you cannot make the level of commitment a larger country like England has done? Does this spell the end to self governing tax havens such as IOM?
EDDIE, Depositor with KSF IOM Ltd
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 14, 2008 13:39: The people if the Isle of Man should know that, at the moment, your government appears to be letting you down and they're trying to get away with it! Recent announcements state that 'the economy is strong enough to avoid recession'. Well, I have news for you. If the guarantees that were in place before the collapse of Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander are not honoured and if 100% of depositors' savings are not returned there won't be an economy on the Isle of Man to worry about. Who in their right mind would then invest/deposit in an offshore bank? Why would you possibly risk your savings knowing that guarantees are worthless whilst UK depositors get all the help they need. Offshore banking will die and I'm sorry to say so will your economy…just something to think about the next time Tony Brown tells you that 'We have endeavoured to do the best we can in terms of taking a responsible attitude to protecting depositors' – a responsible attitude involves ensuring guarantees are worth the paper they're written on Tony! Regards
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 14, 2008 13:06: The Isle of Man is a busted flush – its whole handling of the Iceland disaster is going to feature on 'You and Yours' on BBC Radio 4 tomorrow lunchtime – please listen in – not good publicity I'm sure - the whole risky business of offshore banking is going to be looked at. I think this whole place is living on borrowed time. It will be interesting to see what happen to RBS over here – while we should feel sorry for the average bank worker, their leaders should be treated with the contempt they deserve.
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 14, 2008 09:09: Hi, what I find the most galling is the behavior of the Derbyshire building society. We banked with the Derbyshire IoM since 1993 they sold out to Kaupland, Singer and Fieldlander in 97. how can a bank like the Derbyshire sell out to a spiv bank like KSF. They must have checked them out or did the just take the money and run. We lost everything.
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 14, 2008 02:06: KSF / IOM Collapse
I also am very angry at the way the bank performed during the last days.
Unfortunately on 3rd. October, I transferred 9K GBP into my account from the UK which the internet site showed to be credited on the 7th.
October. After two days of trying to contact the bank, I finally managed to close the account on Wednesday morning the 8th. October and the balance was supposedly to be transferred and a confirmation letter would be issued. Guess what, no letters have arrived for both transactions & obviously, no money arrived. It looks like it ended up in cyber space. How could a bank that was not remitting funds in its last days, still be crediting and receiving deposits from the UK mainland without any apparent problems? I do feel sorry for all depositors and hope they all ultimately recover their funds.
I still have to wait & see if the liquidator finds my GBP 24K from cyber space or they try to deny all knowledge. Presently living in Taiwan is very far to obtain the latest news & keep up with all the facts. From a very disillusioned depositor, who definately will never eat Icelandic Cod again!! and most importantly, never trust the IOM banking system again, after seeing the present situation. Regards,
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 14, 2008 00:40: As the main contact point for the ksfiomdepositors website I get the 'private' correspondence from users. I am sending this on to you as an example of the most typical email. This was sent to me this morning. Poor (literally now) people are still finding out….
This is happening in Britain today. How can a British government, in the 21st Century, allow this to continue? I have heard more heartbreaking stories (over and above my own) in the last couple of days than your average war correspondent. It really is horrific. The anguish and sheer panic people affected are going through is simply life threatening. Lives will be lost over this – you cant put a large group of people through something like this without the fallout getting tragic. It is simply negligence, that the UK Government has not stepped in. These are British people. The same British people that Brown is referring to when he talks about 'No-one will lose anything. 100% guaranteed'. If this group of people continues to be ignored by the UK Government the noise from them will become so loud it could well affect the stability of all UK banking. You cannot simply take a persons life savings and get away with it, let alone 1000 peoples life savings!!
"xxxxxx sent a message using the contact form at
On the 2nd October I requested funds to be transferred for the purchase of a house to Portugal. The funds were taken from my account on the 7th October but to date the monies have not arrived in my account in Portugal. Who do I contact to try and find out where my money has gone? Where do I start to look?
Any help would be greatly appreciated as we were due to complete the purchase tomorrow?"
MONDAY, OCTOBER 13, 2008 19:50: The human side of the collapse of Kaupthing Edge (Isle of Man)
A Small Tale of Credit Crunch Tragedy and Kaupthing Edge (IOM)
Ours is one more tale, a small drop of misery in what appears to be a tsunami of hard-luck stories and personnel tragedies that are unfolding for so many people, in so many countries, because of the credit crunch. I am British and I live with my family in Dubai, a city in the United Arab Emirates. My wife and I are paid in dirhams, a dollar linked currency which we have sent back to the UK as US dollars over the years we have worked abroad. We opened an account with Kaupthing Edge, a subsidiary of an Icelandic Bank, in the Isle of Man and transferred our entire dollar savings into this account in June. My wife and I work in the wildlife/conservation and education field, not professions known for being greatly rewarded financially, but we enjoy our work and over the years we saved a good amount having lived within our means, and being well motivated to save, not spend, by our dream of a house in the Devon countryside where one day we will bring up our kids. The dream was close and we have been looking for properties, but now like so many people our dreams are on hold. Kaupthing Edge Isle of Man has gone into receivership and like thousands of other people with deposits in this bank we have a huge question mark over how much of our savings we may ever see again.
What has made me most angry about the whole situation is the issue of depositor guarantee. When I checked this with Kaupthing Edge in September I spoke to their senior customer relations executive (I can provide a name) and was reassured that the funds were fully guaranteed by the parent company and I was sent an e-mail with this information. Indeed his e-mail ended with the following silky smooth reassuring words….. All deposits with Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander in the Isle of Man are fully guaranteed by Kaupthing Bank hf. With this guarantee, you have peace of mind that your savings are fully secured. I was checking all of the banks we hold funds with at the time and remember thinking how clever I was to be one step ahead, checking up on their guarantees for deposits. Ahead of the game, but I did not check what a full guarantee meant until 2 days before the bank went into receivership and there was so much 'noise' about the state of the Icelandic banking system that, like all the other stampeding and panicking lemmings trying to save their hard earned cash, I tried to remove my funds. While able to access my account on line, I transferred funds and breathed a sigh of relief. But it was too late; I think I missed the boat by a few hours. The next day when I checked, the funds were still there, the Bank had hit the international press and no one at the bank was answering the phones. Game over….the rest is history.
Sleepless nights have followed with some of the most agonizing moments of my life in the darkest hours of the morning at 3AM when one is at one's lowest and when one is overcome with emotions - I have been cheated, I have let down my family, and I have failed myself. And when the people who have cheated you have disappeared and there is no hapless bank employee to vent ones frustration on (no contact from the bank by e-mail, impossible to contact by phone) the only person one is left with to blame and to be angry with is oneself. The words below cannot explain the wrench and worry and raw fear caused by the feeling that one has lost everything. But at 3 AM in the morning when the future is black this was my personnel abyss.
It was hardly a week ago that my wife and I were reading the Bible to our kids before bed and we read Mathew 6: 19-21 (Treasures in Heaven). "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up treasure in Heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will also be." How prophetic the words appear to be to all of us trying to keep hold of our savings in the current wealth – evaporating climate, where the moths and rust are the financial wizards who have packaged and parceled out the toxic subprime loans like biological weapons that appear to have infected and bought the whole financial system close to collapse. However, the analogy between banker and moth is too mild in my opinion. They are nothing but rats.
The Rats have Eaten my Dreams
The rats have eaten all my dreams
And still I don't know what it all means
That the sweated wages of my working years
Have turned from dollars into burning tears.
Yes, the credit crunch rats have eaten my dreams
We worked hard and saved cash for our dream house
But our bank was less a tough Viking and more spivvy louse
And the patient plans of all our years
Have turned from rural bliss to red, red tears.
Yes, the credit crunch rats have eaten our dreams
What to say to my dear wife and children at home
"Sorry folks - the bank swapped our cash for a toxic subprime loan"
And all the time toiled at work these past years
Has been stolen and squandered and turned into tears
Yes, the credit crunch rats have eaten our dreams
When I first heard the news my guts were wrenched out
But with cyberspace banking who hears the sad SHOUT?
And all the little savings made over the years
Have been wasted by bankers and turned into tears.
Yes, the credit crunch rats have eaten our dreams
So now our bank is stuck without paddle up credit crunch creek
And we pray that the Manx government does more than just squeak
As there are thousands of people who are just like me
Whose dreams are on hold while their lives have become misery.
Yes, the Kaupthing Edge rat has eaten our dreams
DR TOM BAILEY, Dubai
MONDAY, OCTOBER 13, 2008 19:40: The IoM Examiner front page says "According to the FSC website, its deputy chairman John Cashen, the Island's former chief financial officer, is a director of KSF (IoM) Ltd, Kaupthing Holdings (IoM) Ltd, Singer & Friedlander International Ltd and Singer & Friedlander Investment Management
(IoM) Ltd." Can it be right that the deputy chairman of IoM Financial Services Commission was a director of Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander (IoM) Ltd ?!
MONDAY, OCTOBER 13, 2008 19:31: Barrie Stevens, you remind me of a fly attracted to ordure by the plight of the unfortunate people posting here for help – why don't you just buzz off! As you say, you do write hundreds of letters. For instance I saw a letter written by "Barrie Stevens of Douglas" on the Tax Research UK website written in reply to an article entitled, "The Isle of Man - $200 Billion Dollars of Tax Evaded Funds" Mr Barrie Stevens of Douglas writes to say, "Why doesn't the UK govt merely put down real pressure, say, "You're British. We are your superiors. Its our tax. Give us the accounts. We want to collect it now". Currently, tax collectors from the UK get thrown off the Isle of Man and in the past have been locked in the cells." And: I am as British as anyone and am treated as such yet the UK tax authorities lose X billion Pounds a year to an Island which Britain owns and which has the Queen in Privy Council as Head of State and whose laws require the Royal Assent just like Westminster. The Channel Islands are similarly placed. So how much tax could we get back if we simply said hand it over and damn the (unwritten) constitutional conventions. Have you a total?
Hmm, same Barrie Stevens of Douglas perchance?
The link to the article is here:
MONDAY, OCTOBER 13, 2008 16:56: This is a trying time for all of us. A lot of people are at their wits end over the failure of this bank. A bank that had the ex-head of the Island as its Chairman for god's sake. It would therefore be appreciated if Barrie could perhaps just lay off and go and do some gardening or something. You have pointed out that we were all stupid - that to get 6.8% instead of 6.6% we must have known we were risking losing all our deposits. Well done for that. Now can you just go and post on some other topic mate.
MONDAY, OCTOBER 13, 2008 16:54: I have just over 600,000 with Kaupthing Singer and Freidlander Isle of Man. I can't believe how useless the FSC has been here. I blame them for not securing our money quickly enough like the British did. The British are protecting everybody 100% but the best the Manx can do is provide me with 50,000 compensation?!? I will loose 550,000...what a joke! I won't be keeping any more money in the Isle of Man unless I see all of my money back that's for sure. I can hear the death knell ringing for the end of this island's financial industry unless Tynwalds seriously sort this matter out. So far about 800 million has been lost from the Isle of Man. Thanks,
MONDAY, OCTOBER 13, 2008 16:44: TONY. Any chance that you can scan the guarantee you speak of please? Or can you word process the text please and then we can all see it. I will run it through the mangle. Some posters say that they have not SEEN a guarantee from Kaupthing. I have not! Any chance?
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
MONDAY, OCTOBER 13, 2008 15:40: can someone in the iom treasury please update all savers in kaupthings iom on the talks in iceland over the weekend . what was discussed and agreed in relation to the iom. is there any hope that savers will get back 100% ? how long will the repayment process take ? the longer the treasury stays quiet the worse things will get. 50% of my family's savings are in kaupthing and were earned through hard work and honesty in england over 35 years. we always paid our taxes and still do. we are not criminals or drug dealers or terrorists. will the uk governmant do the right thing or will it simply allow the iom to be a piece of collateral damage in much tje same way as it made kaupthings suffer the damage from a political spat with iceland. i live ireland and today i have transferred 20% of our remaing saving out of the iom.
MONDAY, OCTOBER 13, 2008 14:32: EJ BELLOT...And why shouldn't I say a lot? I am only answering other posters. You are equally welcome to pour out your analysis as am I! It's a public forum and if only 10% helps it's Brownie points...I have spent huge amounts of time since 1986 keeping up to date with certain aspects of the Isle of Man.....Not saying I am always right but do tell me if I am talking Horlicks!...I have only sought to give out free that which I think I have a duty to say...It was my potty training...Got two letters in this weeks "Examiner"....Just two of many hundreds....Also been on radio a bit....Now what intrigues me is why you as a Channel Island resident did not have the choice/option of banking with UK entities?...I have never had any trouble with a foot in both camps and I do not know anyone else on the Isle of Man who is so barred apart from the rich...Is there not a Double Taxation Agreement down there then?....I recently opened another bank account in the UK and it was not too hard provided you have a passport..."Know your customer etc"...They used to advise that if you move offshore sever all connections with the old country but it was only guidance and if you were doing that then you have one of the hidden agendas of which I have written....Even a native Channel Islander is surely not barred from a UK account...Without telling us your business would you please explain not why you did not do it but why you had no choice/option?...It is the lack of choice/options I am curious about...Also, caveat emptor...why, with all the warnings in the media did anyone go for a Viking bank when they could have gone to a stuffy old British one that at least has the same name as in the UK and had the British Government to answer to via head office and Treasury/FSA control? British is best especially now that there is a financial version of the NHS!
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
MONDAY, OCTOBER 13, 2008 14:19: Like many investors in Kaupthing IOM, who tried to get their money out last week - we too have been "lied" to. On every occasion we spoke to someone at Kaupthing, up to last Thursday, we were assured the money had been sent by Telegraphic Transfer. They even charged the 20 pounds out of the account to do so. SO: Where is the money??????? This is underhand banking at the highest level and should be investigated as fraud.
MONDAY, OCTOBER 13, 2008 12:34: Following on from my previous comment labelled 'Anon' I would point out that like most people who live outside of the UK, as a Channel Island resident I do not have the choice of placing my cash with UK entities. We are not trying to evade tax or launder money. It seems that many people had more cash at bank than they would normally as they were in the process of other transactions such as moving house or retiring. Barrie seems to have a lot to say on this matter but I think we would all sooner hear from officials who can give us concrete details of what and when we expect to receive. Lets hope that other Banks will see this golden opportunity to increase their client base and liquidity and buy the business and our lives can return to normal.
MONDAY, OCTOBER 13, 2008 12:31: To whom it may concern, You state in your article that about 28 Million is owed in the Kaupthing IOM. Actually the total sum of the deposits in Kaupthing IOM at the time of collapse was about 850 Million. As the plan currently is the compensation scheme will be financed by some of the banks in IOM paying in each 500,000 annually. A little math will tell you that unless additional financing is put in place, it will take decades if not centuries before the compensation has been paid out. Hence to talk about a compensation scheme with a maximum payout of 50,000 is misleading without mentioning the actual timing of the payout which is not anywhere near that in the UK. We all understand that IOM is not capable of paying full compensation to all but the government should at least be open about the true facts instead of misleading people and moreover they should have had a scheme in place with a fund that was paid into BEFORE a bank collapses to have any realistic chance of at least partly compensating people. As a consequence IOM is likely to lose its image as an attractive offshore investment place as the word gets out. The conclusion is therefore that the only good thing that may come out of the new protection scheme is that our great great grandchildren will be reminded of us from time to time when a few pounds drip in on their account. Lastly let me point you to the new web site for those who were caught out: http://www.ksfiomdepositors.com/cms Yours truly
MONDAY, OCTOBER 13, 2008 11:38: ANON..interesting that you know the funds were seized. The FSC website says that KSF (IOM) Ltd was not part of the UK group as whole but had a close business interest with the London KSF operation...I do not know how to help you...Surely you should contact the administrators/liquidators as I think you must before taking a claim to the FSC...This is the drawback...However, as you are in the UK it is a matter of jurisdiction and you should see your own MP...It is known that Isle of Man Government has no power outside of its jurisdiction it is in fact formally know as "The Insular Government" in Island/UK dealings!...I think you will find that the funds whilst accounted to you in the Isle of Man are in fact the property in trust of the London bank when in transit...possession is nine points of the law etc....Also, it could be argued that the UK was empowered to seize the money when in the hands of the London bank in its pursuit of redress for its depositors etc...A senior counsel spoke on Radio 4 and says that reference to the Terrorism Act is a smokescreen and not correct but it makes a good news story...I was not listening properly....Only the goodwill between the UK and the Isle of Man is any use I would say...The UK has made it plain that it has no obligation to KSF (IOM) Ltd depositors and it really is a mater as to the lawful title to any funds in the London bank...who actually owned them?...And who had the power to seize them?...More to the point are they under any obligation to give them back?....Did you retain title in transit or did the title to the funds remain with KSF (IOM) Ltd and thus part of the offshore situation until they reached their destination?...I suspect that the title is with the London bank in trust for KSF (IOM) Ltd and now lawfully with the UK??? Legal advice is needed.
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
MONDAY, OCTOBER 13, 2008 11:12: JR & GEOFF. I am probably the only poster here who has actually experienced these situations from the top when I was in the City, Hong Kong and Houston although it was many years ago!...Maybe that is why I see it differently?....Overall, you have misunderstood me. Read it in a broad context. See the big picture as the outside world sees it and not through Island eyes. I am trying to convey the big picture...I see it as a City man would see it and I mean the old City not the "Spiv" City...My reference to KSF not being the fault of the local personnel was in the context of their personal responsibility and culpability it is not linked to the strategic situation I am seeking to write about....neither is it relevant to the Isle of Man as an offshore finance centre..."Non-kosher" money...I am not referring to money laundering!...I know the regulations and all of the recent tax co-operation and information exchange treaties and have written many hundreds of letters in the "Examiner" on this and similar topics over the years as well as doing analytical programmes as a guest on Manx Radio's "Sunday Opinion"...In fact a lot of my work has been years ahead of the Government and FSC!...My nick-name is "Doom and Gloom by the way!...My reply is "Well I don't like to say that I told you...but I told you! You heard it here first....etc". By "non-kosher money" I mean that if you choose to bank in Islands such as the Isle of Man and Channel Islands, which are very small political and economic entities, then you have a hidden agenda! It may well be an ex-pat agenda legally avoiding tax...It may be chasing a high interest rate...it may be to do with residence, ordinarily resident and domiciled status...you may be a "non-Dom" or non-domiciled. There could be many reasons. Maybe you like Manx kippers? Who knows? I and the world regards people who bank offshore as not quite kosher and this accounts for some of the huge sums written about. Come on guys! The Island's total raison d'etre is helping people with hidden agendas! Jersey and Guernsey even more so. That is why the big boys take big risks knowing that they have no guarantee. Anyway, a lot of them are only represented here through Manx instruments and the real money is safe elsewhere. It is the little people who pay..."Brass plates"...Take a walk into the FSC building along Buck's Road. Help yourself to one of the public computers...you can only go so far without a password but they can give you one...choose a Manx banking entity and see how much it is capitalised...See the minimal shareholdings compared to the sums of money taken by deposit...See who are the company officers...see how little they own and control...You can pull the files for a fee....Unless they got round to making all that secret as well!...We have just had a banking crash...The Isle of Man Government is powerless to deal with Iceland...there are no guarantees that mean anything.. the Isle of Man is too poor and not able to give guarantees because its government has no legal existence...TRUE!...Compensation under the Scheme may take ages even now...The FSC is not under Tynwald's political control but a "stand-alone"...this the world calls "mickey mouse"....Most of the banks only rent and do not own their buildings making for a quick getaway and they are open about it!...."Innuendoes?"..."Tell it to the marines better still tell it to KSF savers who have lost out..."Well regulated?" Yes! But in a certain context! An offshore hidden agenda context! You have a very small and subordinate administration in thrall to the UK as the metropolitan power but giving itself airs and making itself look bigger than it really is....My reference to "brass plate is worth more than the bank" stands because I am not talking about when things go well....I am talking about when things go wrong!
It looks like a duck. Quacks like a duck. I say it's a duck! And I said as much to a former Treasury Minister when they invited me to the Treasury and complained about the letters I was then writing in the "Examiner"...Now I must go to Tesco's as I have been working like a BBC reporter all weekend!
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
MONDAY, OCTOBER 13, 2008 10:07: NOTE: UK Residents and Citizens who sent transfers from their KSF (IOM) Ltd accounts to the UK on Monday or Tuesday or Tuesday. This money has been siezed by the UK government. This happened before this bank was wound up, and before the annoucement of Kaupthing Edge in the UK going into adminstration, these payments cleared the KSF (IOM) Ltd bank and were credited into the Singer and Friedlander for onward credit for CHAPS or BACS through NATWEST. The UK Government however siezed all these funds allowed under terrorism laws, and they are a part of ICELANDIC Bank kitttty being held randsome against negoitions with ICELAND to repay UK savers, including savings of many of the Borough Councils. But these payments were do the KSF(IOM)Ltd. Savers. Kaupthing Edge (UK) customers who lost their CHAPS and BAC payments are now receiving their lost payments. Their payments were back logged and passed over to ING, while it seems KSF (IOM) credits were not, and remain in the UK kitty, but not acknowledged as KSG (IOM) Ltd UK deposits. Its basically theft and illegal. We are UK citizens, residents and taxpayers, not part of what Icelands owes, nor are terrorists. This is a very news worthy item. Why is nothing mentioned in the press about this? We need help from IOM Governement to address and pursue what rightfully belongs to KSF (IOM) savers and belongs in the UK accounts which money was inroute and transferred, before being seized. Records would remain in the Singer and Freidlander (UK) Bank (somewhere). The adminstrators of the UK Kaupthing Edge and Singer and Friedlander and liquidator of KSF (IOM) Ltd would have access to these records and be able to acknowledge the transfers and lost credits due. It is time for some legal investigation and action to pursue this while we have a chance.. I will begin trying to get some legal consultations on how to best pursue this today. I think if all savers who are also in the same situation band together with this wil have more effecitive case and chance. This should be able to arranged on contingency basis and also paid for 'damages and costs' as part of case. If interested, suggestions or other ideas, feel free- j.otis(a)btconnect.com. Sadly I remain unable to register on www.ksfiomdepositors.com)
MONDAY, OCTOBER 13, 2008 10:03: Well it had to happen, with the RBS share price being absolutely decimated last week. Now that the U.K. govt. will have a 60% stake, where does that leave the Isle of Man bank and the offshore subsidiaries of Natwest and RBS? Not sitting comfortably I reckon. I am not as wealthy as many people on the Island but I have pulled all my money out of the Island and transferred it back to the U.K. I think a lot of money will have found the exit door in the past few weeks and this will only increase as the financial crisis deepens. Gordon Brown's actions today are a sticking plaster, nothing more. I think it will be hard times ahead as the Isle of Man's status as a safe place for money is increasing debatable. I never got involved in the Housing market over here as I thought everything was massively overpriced – I do think Estate agents need to take a lot of the blame for this – if you want to laugh read some of the market comment pages on the web-sites of the local estate agents – they still seem to be living in a twilight zone where the credit crunch and banking crisis don't exist. Lets not kid ourselves, we are even less well placed than the U.K. to weather what is going to hit us over the next few years – this is an Island of estate agents and bankers and consequently we deserve what's coming.
MONDAY, OCTOBER 13, 2008 10:02: JOHN CARRUTHERS. Since when did the parent bank of KSF give a guarantee to the FSC? And if it did what's that to the price of bagels? Or have I missed something? Please read my posting of this Sunday on the subject. I suspect that a guarantee given to KSF (IOM) Ltd was lodged with the FSC rather than a guarantee given to the FSC? The FSC will not give details! The Isle of Man Government press release of October 10th states that a guarantee was given but implies that it was from the parent bank to KSF (IOM) Ltd. In other words it is worthless! It is dependent on the goodwill of the parent and the terms/intended political scope of the Iceland Governments nationalisation. I quote from the Chief Minister's press release of October 10th 2008."The Isle of Man Government is determined to protect depositors with the local subsidiary by pressing the Government of Iceland, which has nationalised Kaupthing Bank, to honour the commitment given to its Isle of Man based affiliate". Note, "commitment given to its Isle of Man affiliate!...Not FSC at least in this context? The Government could hardly press for the honouring of a guarantee given to the FSC because that entity has no relevant nexus. Perhaps you might like to read an earlier posting somewhere lower down in this lot on Sunday where I attempt to explain based on the above quoted press release. Not that I am speaking from Mount Olympus! There is so much detail here that I fear people who are not daily workers in the fiscal vineyard might lose the point.
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
MONDAY, OCTOBER 13, 2008 08:38: Barrie – I agree with 90% of your comments and advice below, but to me, the island seems to be well-placed to weather a financial storm, although it does need to find some way to reimburse KSF's customers and encourage investors trust. The key point (which I think you've said yourself) is that the risks that have lead to the problems at KSF were seemingly in no way the fault of the personnel in the Isle of Man. Your comments about "non-kosher money" may very well have been true ten or fifteen years ago, but it is not the case today, and "non-kosher" money in the Isle of Man bears no relevance to the KSF problems. The island is a well regulated jurisdiction, with knowledgeable, diligent and professional personnel. I think most of the professional financial services businesses on the island are continually seeking to diversify their businesses, in the knowledge that loopholes eventually get closed, and a business which isn't seeking to change with the times will not succeed. As such, it can suffer setbacks and find ways to move forward. The problem is that the island doesn't have the political clout that when its businesses suffer at the hands of improperly run parent companies. As much as I'd like to see the Isle of Man fight its own battles on an international basis, the truth is that while Iceland might have greater motives for keeping the UK happy, it has no interest in the Isle of Man. Therefore, we're going to have to ask "big brother UK" to help us fight this battle, to help out all of these people who have lost out most unjustly. I hope on behalf of all those affected that a way is found to ensure full reimbursement.
MONDAY, OCTOBER 13, 2008 03:51: I am a saver with Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander IOM (KSF) who stands to lose a substantial sum and a considerable proportion of my life savings in the bank collapse . I trusted the Isle of Man as a reputable banking centre . If Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander .hf ( Iceland ) is unable to uphold the 100% savings guarantee that it gave to the Manx Financial Services Commission in 2007 ( this being the reason I invested such a large sum ) and the Manx government is unable to enforce , by whatever means necessary , this guarantee I will lose faith in the IOM as a banking centre . I like many of the other savers who had funds in KSF still have other remaining accounts with other banks in the IOM . I am already beginning to request withdrawls from these banks back to the mainland UK and I will continue to do so until I am given adequate reassurance that my money is safe . In the circumstances and given the guarantees that have been put in place by other countries such as Ireland , this would now have to be a 100% guarantee of my savings and applied retrospectively . I believe that unless this is the case and comes into effect immediately given the present crisis this will probably be the end of the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands as offshore financial centres .
JOHN CARRUTHERS (Another potentially financially ruined IOM banking customer)
SUNDAY, OCTOBER 12, 2008 22:17: It seems like I have lost of my life savings and pension in the Kaupthing isle of man collapse. I'm not a risk-taking saver. Just a British expat working overseas in international development, wanting to build up some savings for a retirement in Britain later. However the cause is not yet lost - the isle of man government needs to do far more than it has done so far to sort this mess out. Why? Even if you don't care about all the people affected, its going to spell the end of the financial industry in isle of man otherwise. I'm contacting everyone I ever knew to say get any money out of there now, unless you don't mind losing it. Unless you can get back 90-100% of people's savings (50 k sterling isn't enough), you might as well start closing those banks now, and handing out redundacy notices.
SUNDAY, OCTOBER 12, 2008 21:27: The Island's Finance Sector may now be at risk if the UK Government's political control of Britain's banks leads to Sterling problems and the necessary reintroduction of exchange controls in the face of a fast collapsing global financial system. The effective state control or nationalisation of Britain's salient banks spells the end of Thatcherism under which regulation was relaxed giving the City the power to deal in anything and everything as well the lifting of exchange controls thus leading to enormous capital flows. It was the lifting of exchange controls in 1979 that enabled the Finance Sectors of the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey full rein to expand and develop unrestricted in a global market. The reintroduction of exchange control's in order to defend Sterling will reverse this effect as the Islands are still very much part of the old Sterling Area. Previous Exchange Controls meant permission had to be sought to make major imports and purchases and also to move currency abroad even for holidays. Likewise, people were required by law to pay back so much of their credit card borrowings every month and if this was not done the banks were ordered to make the necessary compulsory deductions from current accounts. It was designed to stop over-borrowing and over-lending! Deja vu for some if us! Maybe this is why the UK was wise enough to hold on to Sterling, not join the Euro and thus not come under control of the European Central Bank?
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
SUNDAY, OCTOBER 12, 2008 20:22: What the Isle of Man needs at the moment is confidence in itself. What it does not need are inaccurate and scaremongering posts on sites such as this. I am sorry BARRIE but your comments about non-kosher money, brass plate subsiduaries and mickey mouse desposit takers and the innuendos that goes with them are completely wrong. I also feel that some people are revelling in an Island bashing atmosphere. I am not one of the 3,500 or so who earn a living within the banking sector on the Island but if I were I would be fearful for my job and negative publicity does not help.
SUNDAY, OCTOBER 12, 2008 19:55: The UK it is reported at the time of writing (Sunday October 12th) will take a major stake in the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) which also operates Royal Bank of Scotland International on the Isle of Man. Barclays, Lloyds TSB and HBOS are also candidates for government share ownership. It is reported that if RBS shares fall another 20% on Monday next the bank will be worthless and there will have to be full nationalisation. RBS controls NatWest and Isle of Man Bank. Isle of Man Bank in turn is the bank of Isle of Man Government being roughly the local equivalent of the Bank of England and which handles, redeems and issues the Island's banknotes. Fiscal autonomy away from direct UK financial control and political influence is the key to the Island's autonomous status and the bedrock of the offshore Finance Sector in both the Isle of Man and Channel Islands. Westminster may not be able to nationalise the RBS International and Isle of Man Bank without back to back legislation from Tynwald the Isle of Man's parliament, but it would be naive to think that a tremendous amount of political power over the Island's financial activity will not come about as a result. The RBS will be a beggar and beggars cannot be choosers. The UK will have placemen on the RBS board. With so much UK taxpayers money being risked it is inevitable that the UK will turn its attention to the question of delinquent tax funds in the Island(s) some of which will probably have exited by now anyway. This same scenario applies equally to Jersey and Guernsey and it is hard to see how the Islands can survive in their present constitutional status and relationship with the UK nor even hold on to their Finance Sectors as we have known them. If the UK is forced to nationalise all UK banks as many seem to think will be inevitable then how can there ever be a viable offshore banking sector in the three Crown Dependencies?
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
SUNDAY, OCTOBER 12, 2008 19:44: Dear Sirs, We live in Spain, and have a large part of our savings, from 35 years of HARD WORK, invested in Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander (Isle of Man) Limited, it cannot be replaced at our age and we placed it in this bank in the I-O-M as we were told the financial system was very sound and were given a copy of the parent companies guarantee? It seems that the UK, Dutch, Icelandic and German governments have agreed to cover 100% of savings with this bank in their respective countries, but the Isle of Man Government will not be doing the same with ours and others peoples savings invested in this Island. By the way, we also have friends who have GBP 100k invested in the same bank, which was the proceeds of their house sale much of which was needed next week for the completion on the purchase of their new property - God only knows what they will do now? It is therefore QUITE CLEAR that money is less safe when invested in banks on this Island although we were led to believe from all THEIR publicity and that of the banks that it was a reputable financial centre. After this, and the adverse publicity of people loosing their life's savings by depositing their money with banks in this financial centre it must be quite clear that depositors should TOTALLY AVOID using banks that come under the I-O-M governance, as there is MUCH MORE risk and everything to loose, when the same investment could of been totally safe had it been invested through one of the UKs branches of the SAME bank. This must SURELY be the start of the END of the I-O-M as a banking centre as NO-ONE NOW, in their right sense of mind, will be depositing monies with banks on this Island, taking such un-necessary risks with their savings. We also have some money with the B & B, again in an account in the I-O-M, (although a lesser sum) and this we will be transferring out to an on-shore account immediately we have the new account open, so we are sure that it will be safe. Its a very sorry state of affairs when people led to believe their life savings were safe have been so VERY BADLY LET DOWN through their investments in the Isle of Man... Yours Sincerley,
SUNDAY, OCTOBER 12, 2008 14:58: EORH...There are good legal, taxation and fiscal reasons to do with regulation and such as compensation schemes as to why some UK financial savings schemes with high interest and ISAS are not available on the Isle of Man.....The Finance Sector exists for very specialised reasons not the least of which is that it deals with non-kosher money and also it is easier to set up a small "brass plate" subsidiary here than in the UK....We have just seen this with KSF (IOM) Ltd and frankly the others are not much better even if they sport the brand name of UK/Edinburgh headquartered banks. You don't think the banks came here for any other reason do you? They also know that there is even now very little liability when things go wrong. Until recently there was no Depositors Compensation Scheme applied here to Building Societies and some UK Societies are simply not enabled and empowered to take money from Crown Dependency/offshore sources just as they usually do not lend to people living in the Island and outside of the UK...It is not realistic to expect the FSC to tie everyone up in knots. No one can make any guarantees whatsoever. We have all got so complacent that we forget that no bank is safe. Never has been! Also, when you put money in the bank you invest it and must accept that there is a risk. That the risk is greater offshore is well known but more so in the Channel Islands than here. People often do it because they are hiding something or dodging tax which is the upside. The downside is that you have little or no security/compensation. No FSC could ever regulate where the banks invest overall AND everyone has a duty to know that offshore banks are mickey mouse deposit takers for funding ventures elsewhere with no real capital or security other than the goodwill of the group to which they belong......there's precious little of that about at the moment! When push comes to shove the brass plate on the wall is worth more than the bank!...
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
SUNDAY, OCTOBER 12, 2008 14:23: Is the Kauphting Bank parent guarantee of any value at all such that it places an obligation on the Iceland Government to uphold the same in respect of KSF (IOM) Ltd? To quote from Isle of Man Government website. "The Isle of Man Government is determined to protect depositors with the local subsidiary by pressing the Government of Iceland, which has nationalised Kaupthing Bank, to honour the commitment given to its Isle of Man based affiliate. "Accordingly, we have made representation to the United Kingdom Government - which is responsible for defending the Isle of Man's interests internationally – requesting them to press the Government of Iceland to honour Kaupthing's guarantee."....I have not found the actual text of the parent bank guarantee but what does it guarantee? The official statement aforesaid speaks of a guarantee given to KSF (IOM) Ltd and not to the Isle of Man Government. So really the guarantee will be a matter between the liquidators of KSF (IOM) Ltd and the now nationalised parent bank. However, the parent bank's guarantee to its subsidiary was presumably given to a bank that was not part of the overall group as is the case of KSF (IOM) Ltd in relation to the UK operation which is why UK schemes, guarantees and settlements do not apply in the Island. Does this mean that the Iceland Government will take the same view as the UK Government? In other words the parent bank's guarantee might have been made to KSF (IOM) Ltd as a non-group member never actually under Iceland government responsibility and regulation such that any responsibility and regulation that never was cannot be assumed under recent nationalisation? Furthermore, the guarantee was issued within the aegis of the circumstances prevailing between the parent bank and its Isle of Man subsidiary but non-overall group member. The guarantee was also issued within the aegis of the then Depositors Compensation Scheme and the guarantee from the parent to the bank did not extend to each personal depositor. We also do not know under what legislation Iceland nationalised the parent and what did it lawfully encompass? So really the guarantee from the parent is probably worthless all round and totally subject to UK political influence and goodwill. The UK states that it has enough Iceland assets held hostage against a settlement for UK investors....KSF (IOM) Ltd depositors are dependent upon UK pressure exerted on behalf of the Isle of Man....
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
SUNDAY, OCTOBER 12, 2008 12:59: Further to my last post about adverse publicity: On the KS&F depositors group website there are TV and radio journalists already soliciting stories for proposed programs on ITV and BBC radio 5. See http://www.ksfiomdepositors.com/cms/?q=node/21 . There is a lot of anger against the Isle of Man scheme and our authorities.
SUNDAY, OCTOBER 12, 2008 11:55: If the UK buys into four of the major banks it will have placemen on the Board....Royal Bank of Scotland, Lloyds TSB, Barclays and HBOS...This presumably means that the UK Government will then have a position of influence over these bank's Isle of Man subsidiaries...Not that they can directly take them over as they are not incorporated in the UK unless Tynwald passes back to back legislation as it did when the banks moved to the Island....but as these banks take, or did take, a lot of money of a tax sensitive nature, the boding presence of the UK tax-man's shadow might scare off a lot of investors...Constitutional change may also come about because the Isle of Man's whole existence as a separate jurisdiction is based on the fact that it is fiscally separate from the UK...For the first time we may be forced to accept that the United Kingdom Government has a direct say via bank part ownership in a large section of the Island's finance sector...political complications will follow...And will that cause many investors to pull their savings and maybe other banks to leave?...It will undermine the authority of Tynwald...I recall that Westminster legislation was necessary before certainly Barclays and Royal Bank of Scotland established in the Isle of Man and probably other UK banks also so the UK does have a firm political nexus...My own view is that things have gone so far that the UK will soon have to nationalise all of the Banks and that surely must signal the end of the Isle of Man Finance Sector and possibly mean that the Island itself will cease to be a Crown Dependency and have to "sue for peace" and become an "offshore county" in time!
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
SUNDAY, OCTOBER 12, 2008 10:43: Having read all the comments and arguments as to who and what is to blame for the collapse of this bank,I can only ask, how did so many people put so much money into one account with this bank?,surely people have seen the TV over the last two or three months,one person in particular springs to mind,Martin Lewis on ITV,he has been saying for this amount of time,put your money in small amounts into different banks and building societies,spread them out in sums of no more than,(in the case of the UK) 35000. This was free financial advice to all,over here the limit would have been less than 15000,now the question is where are these financial gurus who profess to know how and where to put your hard earned savings,what crystal ball did they use,are they controlled by the FSC,or can anybody set-up shop just like an Estate agent. I don't have hundreds of thousands of pounds to invest,and if I did,I certainly wouldn't listen to some little toe-rag in a flash office as to where to put my money,the matter to which nobody has referred to is WHY,the attraction to these banks,the only thing that springs to my mind, is, I'm sorry to say is greed,there must have been a bigger interest rate offered than what was on offer by the big four banks,it happened in 1981/2 with the Savings and Investment bank in Upper Church Street,they were giving 17% or more,how they were hoping to pay that out if there was a mass withdrawal. If now that the UK is in discussions with Iceland over their people's money is successful,how is the Manx Government going to handle it,I hope they are not going to use Taxpayers money to bail out these gamblers,because that is what it was, a gamble,you places your money and you takes your choice. The low income and pensioners on this Island have,and are going to have a bleak time this winter on how they are going to pay their bills with the little the government gives them,the warnings were said a few months ago,now the first Hypothermia case has happened,while there may be some sympathy with these bank investors,it is always the same with humans,when the world treats the wealthy badly all hell is to play,and everybody must listen and help,what about the above poor people,nobody is listening to their plight,some have to live on under 100 a week,as Littlejohn in the Mail said,Mandy is going to get as much money per day to just attend the LORDS as a pensioner has to live on per week,think about it.
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 11, 2008 21:26: It is more important than ever for members of Tynwald to counter the adverse publicity which is starting to hit the Isle of Man. Channel 4 broadcast a programme tonight about the collapse of Icelandic banks in which the Depositors Compensation Scheme on the island was compared unfavourably with the actions in the UK. Guernsey was also criticised but that is little consolation! To quote from the Channel 4 website: "And what of those people who invested in the parallel banking universes of Guernsey and the Isle of Man. We shall hear tonight of a woman whose mother has no idea whether or not she has lost her entire life-savings . Several hundred thousand pounds at stake from her house sale...told the bank was a no-risk move...desperately tried to get the money out ...now at a loss.. And there's no Nice Mr Darling offering a lifeline to save these people. I understand that only 50,000 is now guaranteed safe." This will not help our international image and I can only hope that the Government will move quickly to clear up the mess left by Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander's demise, which seems to be largely the result of UK actions and subsequent Icelandic reaction. I also hope that the Chief Minister has been sufficiently forthright to get action from the UK delegation in Reykjavik.
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 11, 2008 18:15: Unfortunately good data on the housing market on the Island is very hard to get hold of (can someone help?) so a lot of what I am about to say is speculative! A transparent market with easily accessible data is a key foundation for maintaining confidence in the next few turbulent years. I agree with many of the comments here about the outlook for house prices on the Island but we do need to keep this in perspective. Firstly the people who are really going to feel the pinch are people who see their houses as investments not homes. Secondly much depends on how long people who are selling have owned their house. Those who have only owned a property for a short time could be hurt badly. Those who have owned it for longer periods have a much greater chance of at least recovering their purchase costs - in the present financial environment to emerge even or slightly ahead is doing well. This of course assumes that there is a 'market' and buyers. Thirdly those 'trading houses' could lose as sellers but in turn they will gain as buyers. Fourthly how many houses are sold each year? I would guess that the vast majority of people are not in the house trading market so they should not be greatly concerned with house price movements as they have no intention of selling anyway. Fifthly the decline in house prices will certainly be no worse than that of banks shares - but will be slower both in decline and in recovery. The biggest underlying concern that I foresee is that the process of selling houses will become much slower. In some situations it may even be impossible to sell. You need a buyer in order to become a seller. So in summary, if you are a long term resident there is little to get worked up about - you didn't actually have any extra money when the price was high and you won't lose any actual money when the price falls. But if you are wanting to sell quickly and hoped to make big windfall profits you'll need to revise your strategy or accept the loss on the chin!
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 11, 2008 14:45: Reading the posts on the site and being involved in the KS&F collapse, I begin to wonder what the future holds for the Isle of Man. There is currently a public sector health service pensions dispute brewing, mainly around a break with reciprocity with the UK scheme. The island government, for all its antiquity, cannot represent itself internationally, cannot guarantee deposits and is limited by the UK. Most Manx laws are adopted UK laws and now we are subject to European regulation and have the same immigration from Eastern Europe of economic migrants. To be honest, in today's international commercially globalised world with stringent tax controls, would we be better off as part of the UK and thus EU? Another county of England, perhaps, or a devolved region like Wales? This would afford us protection as part of a larger group (safety in numbers) and the Westminster government would have to bail us out during this credit crunch. We would also qualify for EU special financial assistance as a small ethnic group (look for the EU sponsorship signs on the new road developments in Ireland for example). You could get treatment in UK hospitals if taken ill while visiting relatives without having to take out expensive insurance. KSF UK customers are completely guaranteed by the UK government and most accounts of Kaupthing Edge have been transferred to ING and are safe. I am playing devil's advocate here and should welcome someone putting a good case forward to counter the above view. What price internal self-government?
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 11, 2008 14:30: We are a partnership involved in the Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander default. I asked to FSC why the new compensation of depositors regulations will exclude any partnership from the compensation scheme. Our partnership is a family partnership with me and my 68years old father as members and we sell a single software product !!! We are not a PLC, we work really hardly to make our money !! I invite all depositors in our situation (partnership, family trust, business account) to send the same request to FSC in order they could valuate this kind of situations.
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 11, 2008 13:16: Andrew your sage is correct in what he says,I got told by a friend 5 years ago that a person he was talking to,who had investments and property here was selling up and pulling out,he said the Isle of Man was going to go into recession in a few years,he was right. This bank crash is history repeating itself,I.E. the 1982 S.I.B. they were reported to be advertising rates at over 17%,which of course people fell for,a lot of people lost a lot of money,the compo at that time was 5000,but then there was another in 1991,so it seems the Manx Government still took no notice,ok the rate went up to 15000,but when you look at all this,Barrie is right,are all the banks and Building societies covered by this new 50,000,I notice too that if you ask at a building society for a current a/c on a high interest rate like they advertise on TV in the UK,it doesn't apply here. ISSAS don't apply here,so this so-called great finance centre is not all its made up to be,I think that when this is sorted out,this FSC had better do its job better,I.E. SUPERVISE,CHECK OUT THE PARENTS,PROTECT THE PUBLIC,NOT THE BANKS.
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 11, 2008 11:13: RAY TAYLOR..There is nothing you can do but I urge you to get on the internet and read the details of the new Depositors Compensation Scheme on the Financial Supervision Commission's website...This has a short explanation of what has happened and how you may be compensated....It also has links to a copy of the latest legislation as passed last Thursday in Tynwald. Read this carefully and you will be able to see where you fit into the great scheme of things. I have not read it myself properly but I think that you first have to approach the liquidator to lodge your claim and then this and possibly other evidence has to be entered into a claim with the FSC. You then have to sign your rights in a claim over to the FSC. The FSC is the Scheme Manager and will appoint a Manager. I believe that the Scheme will only operate once the liquidation of the Bank is complete and that there are little or no funds remaining from within the Bank for distribution which seems to be the case. As you know there is a possibility that Iceland may pay back the money in time if this comes about due to UK broking a deal on behalf of Isle of Man Gvernment which has no power to represent itsself internationally as is the same for Jersey and Guernsey....The factors you have to consider are (a) How long will the winding up and liquidation procedure take? (Years possibly?)...(b) Will the promise of a pay-back by Iceland serve to delay or extend the liquidation? (c) Will the promise of a pay-back by Iceland over a length of time, if that happens, mean that the Scheme will not pay out using the money paid into Scheme Fund by the Island-based banks which now is 500,000 a year each one? ie Possibly The Scheme will not operate at all using the Scheme Fund whilst there is either a promise or liklihood of Iceland making a payout.....Let us hope that Iceland pays it all back soon in one lumpsum but I think not!!!
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 11, 2008 10:51: ANDREW I too have letters published in the Isle of Man newspapers and have long predicted a drop of 50% in Manx house prices but based on the inevitable decline into unpopularity and political stigma of the offshore centres basing their services on tax "avoision!....This increasingly will become politically unacceptable...What with continuing double taxation agreements and information exchange with other countries thus assisting them to get some of their delinquent tax funds back I made a call that Manx house prices will have begin a decline down to 50% current levels by 2011!...I did not forsee the banking collapse but I also based my cast on the fact that everyone I know is living on borrowed money and especially young people who have never seen a crash! And that includes finance workers. I also think that if governments are lashing out hundreds of billions in funds they will want to block tax loop-holes like the Island and other places also....One thing that this has shown is how little Isle of Man Government can do...It cannot guarantee deposits as the UK does not allow anything approximating to a National Debt...It cannot make the Banks pay up...It does not even run the Island's Financial Supervision Commission as this is independent of the political system and it alone acts as the Scheme Manager for any claims under the Depositors Protection scheme...In fact you have to sign your rights to any compensation over to the FSC!
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 11, 2008 04:12: I have a friend in New York who's a Stocks & Shares Analyst. Way back in December 2006, he told me the UK and the USA (in particular) were going to start a 'serious long-term recession' around October/November 2008. Seems he was spot on, but I suppose that's why he get's paid the big bucks? The more worrying part of what he told me back then, is that once this recession gets a grip, it will be at least three, and possibly as long as five years before we slowly start to climb out of it. Putting things even more into perspective, he said, and again I quote; "Once it starts in earnest, it's going to make the Wall Street Crash of '29 look like little more than a stone-chip on a fender." I was chatting to the same friend about an hour ago on Instant Messenger (other Internet talk software is available!) - the FTSE in London having had around 250 billion wiped off it over the last seven days. My mate in New York considers this as nothing more than a warning shot across our bows. I fully appreciate the majority of people on the Island aren't avid stocks and shares watchers. Let's face it, it is pretty boring to most of us after all. But we should be interested. Not only interested but actually very concerned too. As far as day-to-day money issues are concerned, both on the Isle of Man and over in the UK, the performance of the FTSE 100 has an indirect bearing on just about ALL of us. Companies having to close, people losing their jobs, mortgage rates creeping up, pay rises going down, the price of fuel, food on the shelves, pensions, benefits, phone call charges, Sky subscriptions, house prices, even the price of us all getting on and off the Island. So lots of good reasons why we SHOULD be concerned with what's currently happening to the FTSE 100 down yonder in far-off London Town. Although his name might not be Nostradamus, I've yet to witness my friend in New York get a prediction wrong when it comes to these sort of things. It's a bit like having an Inside Trader on the entire world's financial future... but a legal one of course! He reckons that a property on the Island's housing market at the moment for 300,000, will be worth (now get this!) around 200,000 by early 2010. New and old buyers, good times. New and old vendors, bad times. Now I know some contributors to this site might be reading this, and thinking "what a doom merchant". But of course there's no use in developing an ostrich syndrome, whereby we all just stick our heads in the sand and pretend everything is fine. The fact is that it isn't. However, I'm not contributing to the site because I want everyone to go around with long faces. Believe it or not, even in what seem to be the worst of times, I always look for a silver lining. And in this case, the silver lining is the answer to the obvious question... "So what can we do about it?" Notice I've worded that very carefully to what CAN we do about it. Simply because if I started saying what we SHOULD do about it (which I'm not), the publishers of this website (and myself) would have to get into the realms of legal disclaimers about advice not being condoned etcetera. What's needed at times like these, crass as it might sound, is backbone. Bravery in commitment. As opposed to us all withdrawing our savings and stashing them under the mattress. That would make things so much worse for ourselves. What we should... er sorry, could do, is weather the storm. It may seem like a vicious circle, but any IFA worth his or her salt would tell you that maintaining, or even increasing any investments some of us might be lucky enough to have tucked away at the moment, would have a direct effect in shortening and shallowing the future recession. As for buying and/or selling property, unlike Estate Agents, I have no vested interest whatsoever in saying what I say. So unless you really really need to sell, don't. And by really needing to sell I'm talking about only if you currently find yourself with an intolerable level of negative equity, i.e. where your mortgage is for more than the current value of your property. Unfortunately little (if anything at all) can be done locally, about the fact that property prices will fall - and even more noticeably than seen so far. So you COULD sit tight for the next few years if you can do that. Of course as I intimated earlier, what's bad for the seller is good for the buyer... but NOT just at the moment. Think about it... If this recession is going to last three to five years before bottoming out, it's highly likely that any property you buy now, will be worth less than what you've paid in a year, even less in two years, and less still in three years. So although it might be very tempting to put a deposit down on a property that went on the market a year ago at 200,000, and in six months time might be reduced to 179,000, chances are that in two years time, what you bought might only be worth 149,000. First time buyers? Hard as it might be for people already on the property ladder, those who have not got on the first rung yet, might do very well to rent for now. Perhaps until the market and the recession has bottomed out. Try to save as much as possible for now, even if it's just Pounds each month. Then come 2011 or 2012 when we slowly begin the ascent from the recession, that will be the ideal time to buy. Of course at the end of any recession, there no big neon sign saying "Buy Now". Relatively speaking, there's a very limited golden period of about 16 weeks between the recession ending, and a market slowly getting back on it's feet. If you can judge that period right, you're on to a sure fire winner. So all in all, good times and bad times for everyone. Well not quite everyone. I'm sure the Estate Agents will be weeping into their pension funds over the next few years, but hey, they did very well thank you very much, in hyping property prices way over their actual value in recent years. In fact I'd go as far as to say Estate Agents in particular, have helped this recession start in their own way. As a wealthy Socialist with a moral compass (anyone born since 'New Labour' was hatched won't know what one of those is!) What does anger me more than anything, is that all through this up-coming recession, the seriously wealthy on the Isle of Man (and elsewhere) will be allowed to go around, sucking up properties like a Dyson (other makes of vacuum cleaners are available). Thus, in effect preying on the misfortune and hardships of others. And will the great and the good down at Tynwald legislate in order to prevent this from happening? Not a chance! I dare say some of them will even be queuing up themselves, waiting to see what they can snap up themselves, in what may well be looked back on in years to come, as the Isle of Man's property sale of the century. My opinions stated above are just that - opinions. The owners and operators of this website do not necessarily agree with, or condone, any opinions expressed herein. Thanks for listening.
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 21:23: I have used this bank for deposits and transfers from the various overseas posts, where I have worked, for the past 14 years. I had a deposit which my wife and I intended to use for our retirement years. I have never experienced the situation that now exists with KSF IoM. Following the various letters I am confused about the Tynwald decision i.e. will every depositor receive the 50K pounds and if so does anyone have any idea of how long it will take for this to kick in? What does one have to do (apart from going to the IoM or Iceland and kicking the daylights out of the people responsible) to register for the recovery.
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 17:47: Sorry can't get register on www.ksfiomdepositors.com , password is never sent. Not in junk filters either??? Someone please fix it! Also thanks BARRIE from Douglas, great patriotic encouraging message. I'll start doing my homework. Right now it's being spent on finding the missing CHAPS payment. Funny you mention the USA law. My direct ancestor and name sake was the US lawyer who first argued against the Writs of Assistance, that sooner sparked the battles that separated the colonies from the crown. His brother was first Secretary of State, so the genes are there to put up a good fight, anyone would agree!
Update: (please re-post on www.ksfiomdepositors.com) I just spoke to an insider in a London Bank back office in the payments section. He was able to access the Banker Almanac for Monday and Tuesday. All KSF (IoM) payments went first through KSF UK, as an MT103 message, being an Agency Bank it would be forwarded another UK main street bank, KSF UK uses NATWEST, (not HSBC) as their clearing Bank in the UK for BACS and CHAPS payments who would forward this on to sent to the account holder for credit. I just spoke to someone in the payments team with HSBC back office in the UK who could check some of previous cleared payments. BACS and CHAPS arrived from NATWEST through HSBC. The payment came from KSF LONDON after it was sent from KSF (IOM). AS I understand there were several things happening at that time. Kaupthing LONDON from was in the process of getting shut down. All assets where being seized by Darlings orders, the outgoing payments in the system were stopped. At the same time all UK banks were setting up sanctions to stop or 'quarantine' payments from ICELANDIC Banks. Payments could not get through if they did. We did not stand a chance of getting the payment here in the UK, this week. The sad thing as I am told is that even if the payment message is found now, the funds are not attached to it, because the credit cannot be cleared by the receiving bank now because the credit no longer exists. It's not worth the paper it could be printed on. This is why sanctions were being put in place, because UK Banks did not want to get caught with crediting funds to customers they could not get credited now. The only good side of the argument is, that the payment message was cleared and with KSF (UK) and in the UK system. The only reason we did get them is because the UK Gov stopped the KSF from forwarding it. We need to prove this however. Even though KSF IoM cannot give us details of the MT103 they were able them into APACS system to begin with. The onus is on KSF UK, not KSF IoM and they will have records of every MT103 with credit and show if that credit was taken into their banking system, that came from KSF(IoM)CHAPS payment to another IoM Bank made it because it went through HSBC Douglas without a problem. Other clearing to Foreign Banks were SWIFT. USD was cleared through Deutsch Bank, USA. EUR though Deutsch, DE. But as is for payments in UK, the UK Government is solely responsible for the loss. The credit was there when payment arrived at KSF London. Meanwhile KSF UK customers get there money back 100%. But …. The biggest trouble is problem is KSF IoM holders like myself we are either ex-pats or foreign nationals, using the important tax advantage of the offshore system. So, along with the non-dom debate, we don't get much sympathy, or support here. It just drops between the posts. I think we need IoM and Tony Brown to help prove this and we must all band together to fight this issue and as UK residents remitting funds to the UK that actually arrived here and were stopped by protective measures of UK for the purpose of protecting UK account holders (us) In this process we should not be frozen out of the FSCS or other UK Government compensation. We need good knowledgeable help to rage this war with the help of the press to make it known.
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 16:24: I see the 50,000 guarantee only covers personal monies…Corporate monies are no longer guaranteed under the new rule. It seems bizarre that the protection guarantee no longer covers corporate accounts. What happens to all of the CSP/ TSP's which operate from the Island. Perhaps the government did not think this through…?? If businesses no longer operate from the island, we lose the income from them too. What a stupid idea. The island is going to go into financial meltdown…
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 15:52: Everyone..we have centralised discussions of this crisis at: www.ksfiomdepositors.com
Visit this site. Are you willing to enter a scheme where you commit to leave your money in the IOM for a fixed period? If so please visit the site with details about the scheme.
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 14:38: JAMES (UK)...Be guided by the fact that English law gave birth to most American law especially in New England and think as you would back home over the pond. Isle of Man law is also mostly English law and common law and the procedure is much the same...I am sure that you have prima facie (on the face of it) evidence that you had an account with the failed bank??...If so act as you would in the USA! Swear an Affidavit with sworn evidence attached as an exhibit(s) to the fact that you had an account. Word it much the same as you would in the USA. Use an American affidavit as the model...On the other hand the back office of the Court may give you a model.. Go to the library or bookshop and get one of those Penguin books on law...they have examples of Affidavits in the back or Google it...or get a teach yourself law book that sort of thing...then after drawing it up go to a court in the UK....I am not sure which but Crown or more likely District or County Court....and see about swearing an affidavit...Usually there is a Commissioner of Oaths as one or more of the court employees in the back office...Over here it is about four or five pounds...You could see a lawyer which in England are called Solicitors but they will charge you a bomb as will a private Commissioner of Oaths.....Do not as you would in the USA and seek out a Notary Public...It is not like America where often the guy down the body shop is a notary...in England and Wales it is a rare and very costly legal process...You don't need it!...Get the Affidavit sworn and stamped by the public Commissioner of Oaths in the court back office...You will swear on a New Testament/Bible or Affirm possibly!...then attach a copy to the application to the FSC...The most they can say is no!...Sometimes it is necessary to swear an Affidavit at the Court for use in another jurisdiction such as the Isle of Man and then reinforce this with something called Apostiles...But I am not a lawyer...The Court also provides the Apostiles for a fee or they do here!... However, you should at least be able to get an Affidavit done for a few pounds without going to a Solicitor and then attach this to your application to the FSC...If the amended scheme is the same as the old one the you will be required to surrender your rights to the FSC so that the FSC effectively owns your claim. Hence the Affidavit or proof...They no longer will charge you interest!...This is why you need proof...The Apostiles should save you having to travel to the Isle of Man but I write strictly as a layman with general knowledge...If you take this matter to a Solicitor in England and Wales or an Advocate in Scotland and the Isle of Man it will cost you a bomb so get it done yourself if you can!...Affidavits are taken as evidence so if you swear the Affidavit and it is false you will be in it deep!...Remember that free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it!...
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 13:03: Hello all. I'd be so much more lost without the value of these great contributions. Thank you to everyone. I'm a UK (USA)national who needed the IoM advantage to help with being under two tax regimes. Be in known that on Monday I had successful BACS and CHAPs in IOM to other accounts in IoM and 3 SWIFT foreign transfers to other locations. But get this 2 CHAPS transfers were to the UK never arrived and no sign of them in the system. These funds left KSF IOM and when the UK. Unfortunately I could not get a copy of MT103 msg. But I had a call on Wed from senior officer called me from KE (IOM) and had gone and checked and verified the funds definitely had gone out. ONLY UK CHAPS transfers were stopped ,seized or frozen somewhere in the UK system. Where did they go? Such being the case who did this? APACS says they would be returned to the sending bank. If so, there must be a record of it somewhere? Only someone with good knowledge and access of the APCS System can help since a full trace from KSF IOM cannot be done. The other issue is that how can a lost punter show this to the IOM compensation commission, because it's not going to be on the KSF books, and the receiving banks have no record. The compensation scheme rules seem to say it's up the depositor to prove existence of the funds. – HELP!!!!!
BTW: I have found the website http://ksfdepositors.learnjava.net/cms/?q=forum/2 shocking to see the scale of personal very sad devastation! I have tried to comment there but cannot get the forum to return a password to log on. Lets keep this going and hopefullwe can get the press interested enough to help increase the pressure, and use their investigative skills for killer story, that my help shed more light on the who, where and whats of so much lost cash!
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 13:03: Bank with Iceland and your money will be frozen! Interesting to read the word "stolen" in the thread below because it increasingly looks as if the whole Icelandic banks scenario has been based on reckless and uncontrolled touting for peoples money offering interest rates that were simply unsustainable. As the banks got more desperate for fresh funds they simply put up the interest rates offered - it was a house of cards. They never had any ability to repay all the people who invested with them and we will find that they really did not care - as long as it was not their own people's money.
The really alarming thing is that the FSA in the UK did not take heed and worry about the level of risk to which the public, charities and local authorities were increasingly being unwittingly exposed.
The whole ethos of banking is confidence. Once the confidence
was questioned, the whole false financial edifice of the Icelandic banks collapsed very quickly - too quickly for some of us. The Icelandic Government ultimately is to blame for allowing its banks to overtrade, and Iceland will go down in history as a dishonest country that cannot be trusted.
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 12:57: JIR!...Would you care to rewrite the last sentence of your contribution plese and I will see if anyone can help.
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 12:54: Mat Walker I don't understand your situation. KSF failed to transfer your money. You've apparently (probably only temporarily) lost this sum of money.
But what's the deal with Ozforex? Just return the money they sent you
- if that's what they did. Why can't you settle the contract with them?
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 12:51: Tell me that this piece is not true someone please! I had no idea that these Icelandic banks had no branches in the UK...Isle of Man yes but that is not part of the United Kingdom...I note the following from Damien Reece a columnist for the Daily Telegraph as published in yesterday's on-line edition:-" But behind the headlines is a story about so how so many of us have walked blindly into this crisis and have been partly to blame for its eruption. We had tulip mania in the 1630s and the South Sea Bubble of the 1720s. Now we've had the iceberg crash in which hundreds of thousands rushed to deposit their money with banks they'd never heard of, which had no branches in the UK, and which were based on a North Atlantic island most had never visited and knew virtually nothing about. The madness of the crowd that swamped Iceland with its savings, chasing fairly marginal increases in interest rates, reveals a modern money mania where all thought of risk and reward was suspended". Now surely people did not put their money into a bank that had no branches in the UK so as to be under some form of UK Government FSA supervision?
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 12:18: I feel really sorry for those which have lost out in the recent collapse but it is a lesson to us all to get our money out of this jurisdiction and to somewhere where guarantees mean something. All my funds have left the island and are distributed amongst uk banks, who are once again getting a good kicking in the markets today. I feel sorry for the people who work in the banks over here but in these changing times where everything is spiralling downwards, the isle of man is looking increasingly risky as a 'safe haven'. People are watching the govt's response to the recent collapse and aren't impressed. If the Island wants to maintain confidence in its banking systems, it needs to act decisively and fast. The bottom could fall out of this place pretty fast.
Editor's note: In response to all the links provided by Your Shout contributors to help others, iomtoday staff have created a dedicated links page. Click here to see the list and feel free to send any others you think may be of benefit to those affected.
>>PREVIOUS COMMENTS: PAGE 3FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 11:36: ANON...The Tynwald sitting of yesterday contained a reference to the BCCI (Bank of credit and Commerce International) crash of 1991 (check that!)and that this matter has only very recently been completed done and dusted by the relevant Isle of Man authorities!
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 11:31: ANON...No blame can attach to the directors of KSF (IOM) Ltd providing that they truly and faithfully obeyed the instructions of their principals and honestly conveyed to the public/customers that which they were told believing that to be true. This is the broad principle of the law of agency. In fact, a failure to convey principal's instructions or to place one's own interpretation on them lays one open to censure and prosecution..Likewise so does acting outside the realms of given authority...the local bank was a subsidiary I presume of course and thus the local management was the tail...The tail cannot lawfully wag the dog...If the local directors acted within their powers under instruction and performed as their principal's mouthpiece then they have done no wrong..I had to read up on this many years ago when I was in the City and a member of the Baltic Exchange.
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 11:24: I am waiting to see if 10,000 pounds was successfully transfered from my account with KSF.After reading the threads I am less optomistic. When I put my trust in the bank I was assured the parent company in Iceland, would gaurantee deposits? This seems to be a hollow promise? Does anyone know if there is any assets of the bank left in IOM to pay back depositors?
Also, has anyone any idea how FSC handled the last bank crash and how long it took before depositors got their money via their scheme?
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 11:21: FOR JS - Hippo here, thanks for telling your experience re. the MT103 Chaps screen too. I've started using the www.ksfiomdepositors.com forum now. No offence to this website, which is excellent, but a more dedicated space. Name of HOPPER though. Iput up the same post 30 minutes ago. Interesting you were told Natwest, I was told HSBC. Did the screen show a release of funds time ? Might be worth a call to APACS/CHAPS folks to seek some explanation. My fear is that the details were in the system, but the funds were not their (from Kaupthing in Iceland) to allow the payment to happen. Best case scenario is probably that the funds were "stopped" in the London branch of S&F by the London regulators, but this is a long shot in my view. An even longer shot would be to try to claim that this makes us, de facto, a "private customer" of London S&F with the 100% UK Gov guarantee. Probably more chance of winning the Lottery....We need some "informal" help here from ex employees...come on, you can be anonymous....
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 11:07: Patrick o'Brien...It all depends on what the Icelandic government nationalised by law..Remember it is Icelandic law not UK and not Isle of Man law..when the UK Government does this sort of thing the shareholders get binned, such as mortgages get taken over and the savings are moved to a (hopefully) solvent Bank...How can Iceland's Government nationalise or take over an Isle of Man Company when it is out of jurisdiction...They may nationalise the shares if any held by the parent company in Iceland if they are ascribed as assets but these shares are worthless so we are back to the fact that if you put your money offshore you put it into a "shell" and there is little come-back save at the goodwill of the parent or government or in the unlikely even that Gordon Brown manages to screw some moolah out of Iceland and gives it over here but don't bank on it!..Depositors would have been better off saving with one of the British banks because even though they are often offshore incorporated subsidiaries they are at least under the influence via the head office of the UK authorities where there is political control...I am not of course an expert..
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 10:45: Patrick O'Brian..Surely it was not the KSF(IOM) Ltd that defaulted? The Isle of Man subsidiary was defaulted upon by its principals who had promised funding up to last hour. I am no lawyer but those who are will try to say that the default came from the parent entity in Iceland...The small print may say that the parent will guarantee deposits if the Isle of Man subsidiary defaults but this is worthless if the parent defaults first. The statement or guarantee I would say is worthless. The chances of an Isle of Man incorporated company defaulting when under the parent's wing are zilch! It was a wholly owned "cash cow"...sorry.. subsidiary. Look it up in the Island's Companies Registry and you may be surprised just how small a share issue it has! These guarantee statements are useless as they depend upon the goodwill of the principal. You will probably find that apart from the Company Secretary and a couple of locals the shares are owned by the Icelandic parent?...For the parent bank's guarantee to have any meaning then the Isle of Man subsidiary would have had to be in a position to trade freely and independently so as to commit the parent. In other words, the tail would have to wag the dog and that is not how it works on the Isle of Man in regard to many but not all of these offshore leeches..sorry Banks!...The guarantee should have read that the parent bank guarantees the deposits in the Isle of Man if it, the parent bank, defaults and thus causes the Isle of Man subsidiary to default which is nonsense and so these nice glossy brochures mean absolutely nothing!
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 10:04: Like many individuals my boyfriend and I temporarily deposited all our savings for a new house with Kaupthing Edge IOM.We were in the process of splitting the amount held with other banks when the company closed down so we stand to lose, what is by any standards, a substantial sum. With the Financial Institutions crying out for cash are none of the IOM banks prepared to follow ING's UK lead by taking over the private retail deposits and servicing the accounts as usual? In this climate new clients and cash liquidity are hard to come by, the client list alone should have some material value. Not only would this proposal keep the Depositiors happy as there would be no loss of capital, it should also ensure that more funds would be available to the remaining Kaupthing creditors with liquidation costs being significantly reduced. As for the Depositors Compensation Scheme-just as in the proposed Guernsey and Jersey schemes, this is funded by the Banks and not by our under-capitalised Governments so is there enough in the kitty to pay the Depositors the promised sums? How long could we have to wait for our money? If the same fate were to befall others would there be anything for them at all? Lets hope that the Liquidator has more business acumen then the people running the company before. Lastly please spare us the 'it's the parent company's fault' argument-Bank Directors are paid a phenomenal sum to set and oversee company policy so if I were them I would be expecting a long prison sentence at the very least.
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 09:48: I cannot find anywhere what was actually approved by Tynwald yesterday.
BBC info: Legislation to protect savings held in Isle of Man banks up to the value of 50,000 has been approved.
IOM Today: SAVINGS of up to 50,000 will be covered by an updated Isle of Man depositors' compensation scheme.
Manx Radio: The package has increased the guaranteed compensation for individuals with money in banks in the Island from 15,000 to 50,000.
Does it mean that you need to have in bank 66667 to get back 50000 sometimes or it covers 100 per cent = up to the value?
Is any of the banks in the Isle of Man ON-SHORE same as people living here?
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 09:01: One of the reassuring articles in the terms and conditions of the Kaupthing accounts in the IOM was the assurance that the parent (Kaupthing) company bank in Iceland would guarantee the depositors' money in the event of any default in its local branch in the IOM. As the government of Iceland has "nationalized" the bank and assured its local icelandic depositors in Iceland that their money is safe it has a similar legal obligation to its IOM depositors. Had the government of Iceland allowed the bank to fold then it would have not have had such an obligation only the need to appoint a Receiver to wind up the bank and pay off any debtors from what was left. In this current situation it would appear that the government of Iceland has a "de jure" obligation to meet its responsibility to guarantee the deposits of the Kaupthing IOM depositors as it has assumed the responsibility of the "parent bank". This is a matter for international law and something that should be taken up by the IOM financial authority. Perhaps it should liaise with the UK Treasury to sue the government of Iceland in a joint action thus reducing its costs and at the same time increasing its profile/credentials. The UK has frozen Kaupthing assets to use in its negotiations but what does the IOM have ? If this is allowed to pass the IOM will in all likelihood see an end to its status as a "safe" financial haven.
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 08:49: HIPPO, this is very worrying for all of us. I tried to move funds on 7-Oct and still not received. The next day I requested from one of the KSF staff to email me the SWIFT MT103, which she did (her email now gets a delivery error message). The MT103 shows the money was to be passed to an intermediary as follows:
:53A:Sender's Correspondent Bank NWBKGB2L
:53A:Sender's Correspondent Bank NATIONAL WESTMINSTER BANK PLC
:53A:Sender's Correspondent Bank LONDON
So the money trail was KSF - NatWest - My Bank. What is this NatWest account? Is the money there? Are they holding it? Or did KSF recall it into another of their accounts (which I'm told from my other bank is possible). I contacted NatWest London and the phone operator placed me on hold and spoke to 'someone' and told me i have no authority and have to contact KSF. What we need is someone with banking experience who is caught up in this mess to help explain what may have happened with this money which is now nowhere to be seen.
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 08:43: Well something odd and more worrying is at hand and hopefully the power of networking might bring some more answers. I had 3 accounts with Kaupthing Singer & Freidlander (IOM) USD$ EUR€ and GBP. Then two Edge accounts a $USD account linked to the USA and a GBP to the UK. On Sunday I set a series of Withdrawls for Monday. Two $50K one to Hong Kong, and the other to the USA from my Platium by SWIFT, a GBP CHAPS for 141k to another bank in the IOM, via HSBC. $35k was sent by SWIFT to Linkled USD account in the USA. These all arrived. But here is the scary bit. At the same time two CHAPS payments went to my UK accounts. One for 40k CHAPS from Edge to my linked account and 25k BACS from Platinum account. Guess what only the UK CHAPS did not arrive. . APACS says only the sending the bank can trace these payments. Now KSF (IOM) is shut, and they cut the servers on the site while I was logged trying to get some printouts.
My worries now are 2 fold. 1) Are there records for the liquidators at KSF and any chance of a trace. Will (can) this be considered part of the FCS claim? 2) Why is it only the UK CHAPS & BACS did not make it? The UK gvt was freeezing all Kaupthing assets at this time. KSF UK and KSF IOM are linked. Could inbounds payments have been stopped, forzen or rerouted? How could one find out? If IOM increased compensation scheme applies to KSF(IOM) I will still but about $25k if the money was returned. If Its not on their system without a way of tracing it, I am out 65k. Its all very scary. Any helpful thoughts, prayers or insight posted will be very appreciated.
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 05:17: Depositors of the failed Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander Isle of Man bank have formed a website which will be the central location from which co-ordinated pressure can be applied to get the stolen monies returned to their rightful owners.
The IOM and UK Governments, financial institutions and agencies can be assured that the depositors will ensure this issue remains at the forefront of their agenda until it is fully resolved. Real human lives have been destroyed and no-one should be under the impression it will just blow over.
The site can be found at http://ksfdepositors.learnjava.net/cms/?q=forum/2
Read it. It will not go away.
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 01:52: If you want a link to see the scale of things:-
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 01:11: Mr Brown and his cronies (and that includes the rest of the UK politicians) are lying through their teeth and both the general public and the media are falling for the con.
Thousands of British citizens have lost their life savings (including us) but the British Government have left us out to dry. And in many cases to die. Yet we still hear the BBC spouting the rubbish about '100% deposit compensation'. We didn't have a UK address, having moved abroad for a while, and so were forced to use an 'offshore' bank for our sterling current account.
Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander, Isle of man, fraudulently took our money one week ago in the full knowledge that it would never be returned. A crime of the highest level has taken place against a very large number of UK citizens. Why has there been no mention about these British people who have lost everything. Why is Mr Brown allowed to continue to spout the lie that 'UK Citizens are protected'?
I cannot stress the level of despair my family (and many many other British families) is in. My heart breaks to see such a close knit and loving family break apart. And no-one cares. If we had been stupid. If we had been greedy. If we had tried to dodge British taxes. I would have had to take it on the chin as my own fault. But we hadn't. We had been prudent, careful and didn't take risks with our family's money – all to no avail we still lost the lot.
We had moved the money one week ago into our current account so that we could transfer it to safe banks. Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander, Isle of man, happily took our money with the full knowledge that it would be lost to the Parent company. British citizens have been let down by the British Government and its agencies. No-one cares.
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2008 00:12: British subjects living aboard HAD to have offshore bank accounts. Lots of us didn't want to but were forced. Now, we have lost everything. Why is the media not covering this? Why is the UK Government strangely quiet on this? Thousands of British people have just had their lives shattered and no-one seems to give two hoots. Just for you interest, we are not rich. We had 161000 to our name. No property. No other savings. Nothing, everything has gone. We did everything that was right; didn't take risks, were not greedy, paid all our taxes. But now the UK has deserted us. Lives will be lost due to this.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 22:12: As a private depositor in KS&F (IOM) who has lost a large sum, I attended the meeting at the Gaiety Theatre. The despair was tangible and the personal stories heart-rending. The only good news was that the bank is covered by the NEW Depositors Compensation Scheme because the 'event of default' will occur on 24th October, well after the Tynwald decision, at the winding-up hearing in Court. It appears that the end of KS&F was set off by the UK seizure of Kaupthing assets in London, which included IOM money, and the consequent refusal of Reykjavik to support the Isle of Man subsidiary. The real lesson is that if a bank's interest rates seem too good to be true then they are probably not based on sound business. I was as guilty as anyone of being seduced by high interest and did not see the now obvious risk inherent in Iceland's over-expanded banking system.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 21:57: The reason why offshore banks are subject to much less control, restriction and security requirements is simply to attract them here and then we continue this theme by protecting them, catering to many of their needs so that they do not move elsewhere. They could not do what they do here both in the UK and most of Europe. Depositors could not do what they do here both in the UK and Europe. Treasury Minister Allan Bell spoke on this topic yesterday (Thursday). Isle of Man Government's concern is that in such a competitive field the banks here will remove off elsewhere if they have to provide too much by way of enhanced liability. Other small jurisdictions, many of them, don't even do what the Isle of Man does by way of compensation. Jersey and Guernsey have no schemes at all and effectively are still just talking about it. The Island cannot afford to put the security of savers, who had after all been made aware of the limited Compensation Scheme, before the interests of the Banks and their 3,500 or so staff. The Banks are the Isle of Man's main and essential tax payers. This was stated in Tynwald. It's not me saying that it is the political reality. The garden was dug and the Banks invited to plant their seeds. The banks here usually exist to serve people who, rightly or wrongly, are involved in "efficient tax planning". The banks take advantage of this need whether it be avoidance, evasion or "avoision." Consequently, they have in their own way acquired a tailor-made environment to serve tax-related banking purposes within the aegis of a jurisdiction that is politically benign towards them. The Island's parliament Tynwald has legislated for their need. Depositors with a tax agenda or similar will put their money offshore in this tax-advantageous environment largely free of such as UK or Iceland control in this instance. However, the fact that a depositor does this for their agenda makes the Banks feel able to make free with the depositors' money in pursuit of their agenda also. In other words, offshore Banks are "cash cows" for other ventures and banking centres. Interest rates reflect this. It is caveat emptor...buyer beware....buyer of banking services...In other words, whilst there is good regulation here it is regulation within a certain context and that is that the limited offshore subsidiary Banks are never quite kosher. You pays in your money and takes your choice secure in the knowledge that if it goes wrong you could get a few thousand quid back in time maybe...and now 50,000 back in time....maybe!.....The fact that advertised compensation was so very low for the risk of investing in private limited liability companies with such a minimal capitalisation ratio to deposits, yet operating globally from the Island as banks, should have set off a red light or two. Frankly, even 50,000 possible compensation sets the alarm bells ringing! KSF depositors may not get paid but hell will be. There will be hell to pay! This could well be the end of an era.
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 21:35: Myself and my wife moved to Australia for while. As we didn't have a UK postal address we were forced to take an offshore sterling account, something neither of us wanted to do but which we were told we had to do.
We decided that we didn't like the idea of an 'offshore' account and so made the decision to move the money – our lifes saving of 25 years (Earned through hard work rather than gambling on horses or stocks/shares etc). In doing so we moved the monies to Kaupthing Singer & Freidlander (IOM) in readiness to exchange to Aussie dollars. On Wednesday I exchanged 150K with ozforex to A$. I sent a fax to Kaupthing Singer & Freidlander (IOM) requesting a Telegraphic transfer of funds to Ozforex. But of course, the funds never arrived leaving me with 161K out of pocket an owing 150K.
That 161000 was our lifes savings. It was everything we had. We don't have anything else. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. While this goes on the Politicians continue to peddle their lies in an attempt to make votes. The Financial Regulators pump out meaningless messages and words that are dressed to give the impression that they have power and will save our money. While some multimillionaire somewhere has a bottle of champagne (that probably cost the same as our lifs savings) to toast making a few extra, and unneeded, million by playing Kaupthing brilliantly. The last 36 hours has been absolutely hell on earth. Torture is illegal in the UK and most countries around the world, but this has been far far worse as no-one appears to care. Maybe Amnesty International should investigate this as its inhuman. Imagine someone telling you that you have just lost the last 25 years of your life. For no fault of you own; but because of laws.
I hope that the UK public will see through the Politicians and 'regulators' and realise that they are being taken for a rollercoaster ride of lies and innuendo.
I feel for the public of the Isle of Man as the financial sector there is now as good as finished. Only a fool would have their monies in an 'offshore' bank account such as IOM or the Channel Islands.
For myself, i don't know what the future will now bring. In 36 hours we have gone from being comfortable to severely in debt. When all the crying stops maybe we can take stock, but i fear that silly and terminal actions by many many people will now happen over the next few weeks. And still no-one cares.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 21:13: It is Make or Break time for the Manx Government and the the Manx economy, if they do not come to the rescue of the depositors of this Bank then the whole finance sector is going down. The only reason they are sat on billions of pounds on deposit it purely due to the finance sector, so they have to use part of this as a rescue plan and restore confidence in the isle of man as a safe haven for funds. Somebody had better get serious and fast. Both me and my husband have lost money with the Icelandic bank, money we had put away for our childrens education. Heres hoping one of those tynwald lot has some courage.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 20:37: It is so sad to read all these comments on this situation of people having trouble with banks.
Barrie is right in all he says about these so called strong financial institutions,I have never liked banks since all those people lost money in 1982 with the Savings and Investment bank,who is to blame?,well people live,go to work,raise a family,save up money to buy things etc,they also expect the politicians who they voted in to protect them from this sort of thing,they haven't done a very good job it seems,so,IF this banking problem is not sorted out to the peoples satisfaction,calls should be coming forward for the resignation of this Government. When in 1967 the problem was Radio Caroline,the English Government intervened under a Order in Council to force the Manx Government to stop supplying the radio ship,so they have powers to intervene if they want to,they just let this Manx Government play at being in charge,until they start getting out of hand,then its Whitehall involved,as I have said before,we would be better off under the UK,and get rid of this lot of dead wood.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 20:35: Heart felt commiserations to everyone caught up in this. As someone once said 'what goes around comes around'……
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 19:19: Hippo - can you post more of your experiences on this web forum:
There are a bunch of other customers in similar situations there who would benefit from your information.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 19:08: Perhaps now more people will take note of what the letters "Ltd" mean after a company name ie...."(IOM) Ltd"...It stands for limited and means "limited liability" and has done so since the mid-nineteenth century with subsequent amendments to directors personal liability....(IOM) Ltd = limited liability and in the Isle of Man...Not the UK! Ltd is health warning telling you to be very careful when dealing but so many people are not aware of this!
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 18:48: I also transferred some money from the Kaupthing IoM website on sunday 5th October and it was taken off my balance but never turned up at my bank... where is it? this similar to another comment on this thread. I live in Cambodia so it is difficult for me to keep up to date with what is going on... if there is anyone in a similar situation to me i would be very grateful if they can contact me at firstname.lastname@example.org as i have no idea what is going on or how to follow up on this.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 18:45: ANON. I should explain that the Isle of Man does not issue passports that are anything other than British. There is no difference between a passport issued in the UK and one issued in the Island. All holders are British and UK citizens. The Island belongs to a set known in political geography as "The British Islands" and the passports are stamped European Union because, as I often point out in the local paper, the Island is not in the EU but the people are..although about 12,000 Manxmen are restricted in the EU outside of the UK. In the case of KFS it is not where you are its where your bank and account is located ie. overseas and outside of the UK and they can wash their hands or usually do.
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 18:44: Gordon Brown seized the assets of Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander in the UK yesterday and all Iceland's assets in the UK today - all under the Anti-terrorism Act! That was provocation to the Icelandic Government who then saw everything to gain by putting Kaupthing Bank into administration, thus reneging on their growing obligations to pass money back to the Isle of Man to meet the rush of withdrawals taking place. Unfortunately, the Isle of Man is caught between a rock and a hard place in the growing international acrimony and depositors in KSF (IOM) will get no help from Iceland, UK or the Isle of Man. It is not clear whether the KSF (IOM) is covered at all by the new depositors scheme. It looks as if the Tynwald deliberately delayed meeting until after withdrawing the licence from KSF. They are probably more worried about contagion of cash withdrawals from the island than helping out the savers of KSF (IOM).Ultimately, Iceland can afford to fall out big time with the Isle of Man - they cannot afford to fall out with the UK or the EU which they wish to join.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 18:27: Fellow sufferers. Here is a very worrying tale. I tried to move 900k by chaps, instruction sent Sunday 5 Oct for action Monday 6 Oct first thing. Showed as leaving my account Monday, 20 fee debited, but after various emails I had it confirmed to me that the money was only actually "released" at 7.23am on Tues 7 by "Singer and Friedlander in London". I have an email from one of the Edge team confirming this. Given the money did not arrive in my UK Nationwide account I pushed to find out more, and even had the Kaupthing Edge team read out to me the "MT103" screen which, I was told, confirms the money having gone into the CHAPS clearing system, but alas, nothing has ever arrived at Nationwide in the UK as of yet. I pushed for more information, and was told that the Edge IoM team use HSBC as correspondent bank to do their chaps, as does Nationwide in the UK. The Nationwide CHAPS team were very helpful in contacting HSBC to "look" for the chaps, given HSBC was supposed to be clearing for both sides, but according to HSBC a chaps for this amount never existed in the system. Hugely worrying, because I think this shows that the KSF IoM could not even get the short term funding needed to transact these withdraws as early as Monday morning - i.e. its deposit base had already headed back to the parent in Iceland. HIPPO
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 18:11: ANON..Citizenship is not part of the equation. Where you live or are ordinarily resident is not part of the equation. There is no difference all Manx are British citizens with British passports. The key factor is simple...It is the jurisdiction that matters and where the bank is incorporated. It must be an Isle of Man registered company as they had to apply to an Isle of Man Court for winding up. The UK just does not extend itself to the Isle of Man for dealing with an Isle of Man company or vice versa. The UK in this matter has no obligation and no jurisdiction and that is why people put their money here in the first instance. It amazes me that so many people were not aware of the very limited compensation scheme on the Island. I mean putting a million into a bank that if it went broke would not even manage to get you 15,000 back if it so chose to do. KSF may have been a wholy owned subsidiary of its Icelandic parent but it was not an Icelandic registered company it was offshore subject to neither Iceland or UK controls. Like I say, I thought everyone knew that offshore banks were piggy-banks and little more than shells. I came to the Island in March 1986 and have written and broadcast on a lot of happenings but even back then the Manx, real Manx, told me that it was OK if you banked with the the Isle of Man office of a UK bank that was incorporated in London say, and came under UK rules abnd Government. But be wary of a Isle of Man registered company using the same name as its parent Bank. They were only here because they were under less control and did not have to have the massive reserves and indeed a call to keep reserves such as the UK Treasury and now FSA have the power to make them do. Isle of Man Banks are mickey mouse shells always have been! Its a matter of goodwill of the parent and not the UK's problem if you bank overseas which the Isle of Man is. Sorry!
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 18:08: Same here, i have years of savings. I also transferred money on 7-Oct and it has not been received. I hope someone who goes to the meeting today will write on this post, I'm desperate to know what has been said. The news wire is painfully slow.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 18:06: More on the KSF missing funds scandal...I issued signed Instructions to transfer my company account holding from KSF IoM to a UK mainland bank on 3 October at 14:00hrs, 5 days before the bank went into liquidation. Checking next day 4 October by Internet banking showed it had been transferred out from the KSF account and this was confirmed by phone, but to this date, the UK destination bank is telling me it has not been received by them. What the hell is happening here? A trace on missing funds can normally only initiate from the sending bank, but as KSF is in Receivership, does anyone have an idea how to kick off a search of the "missing" funds?
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 17:45: Anon with 161,000 to lose... I really feel for you. Don't give up hope yet though. If you want someone to write to here's some addresses:
UK Treasury Ministers - email@example.com
UK Treasury Public enquiries - firstname.lastname@example.org
Isle of Man Financial Supervision Commission - email@example.com
SKY News - firstname.lastname@example.org
Channel 4 News - email@example.com
BBC Working Lunch - firstname.lastname@example.org
ITN - email@example.com
Press Association - http://www.pressassociation.co.uk/contact.php
Times Online newsdesk - firstname.lastname@example.org
Times "Your Money" - email@example.com
Times Business - firstname.lastname@example.org
Telegraph Editorial - email@example.com
Guardian Money - firstname.lastname@example.org
Guardian Weekly (Expat) editor - email@example.com
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 17:39: What about those savers who are UK citizens but have savings in KFS IoM? What territory do they come under when the UK Gov has said Icesave depositors will not loose a penny - surely the same should apply as Kaupthing Parental Company (and now therefore Icelandic Government) are not for-filling promise to cover 100% of the deposits?
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 17:22: Approaching the UK Government/Treasury/MPs is all very well but both they and the Isle of Man usually trot out the constitutional differences and point out that they are separate financial jurisdictions. The one does not usually share responsibility with the other. They usually say that HM Government does not interfere with the Island's internal self-government. These are unusual times and so it might, as a long shot, be possible that Isle of Man Govt and UK Govt entities pull off a cross jurisdiction guarantee or bail-out as a mutually beneficial political move but is not likely I would have thought. There is a love-hate relationship between the Island and UK Treasury-HM Revenue and Customs. Some over there would love to see a Manx offshore bank go down with little or no compensation as a warning to others. The Isle of Man's entire finance sector and power to be financially autonomous and internally self-governing is based on being British territory but not within the political entity of the United Kingdom. The Island is not directly funded from the UK and there is a jealously guarded border-line that both sides never usually cross. London's view is that it is not the place for HM Government to involve itself in matters within the competence of Isle of Man Govt.....by which they mean matters reserved or well established within the powers of Island Government and which are not interfered with unless Crown or UK interests are directly affected. Unless Isle of Man Government asks for help I do not see what possible effect MPs and HM Treasury can have. The Isle of Man I do not see as asking for guarantees to be extended via UK involvement as arguably it blows apart all concept of fiscal autonomy and internal self-government. When Northern Rock went down it was revealed that something very substantial was held in a Jersey company but Westminster did not seek and could not anyway easily extend its legislation to Jersey. Westminster does have the right to legislate for the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man but strictly it does not do so unless the Islands request it. But then we live in interesting times changing faster than anyone can write.
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 17:12: Thankyou for caring everyone. But we have lost our lifes savings. We now have nothing. 161000 lost. 25 years of work has been taken and there is absolutely nothing i can do about it. I don't know what to do. What do i tell my kids. Please help me someone.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 17:06: I like may others transferred the balance of my Kaupthing Edge IoM account early Tuesday afternoon. It has not arrived to my designated bank but the balance on the KSF IoM website showed it had transferred. Where are all these funds now? Now the website has ceased and I have no printed proof of the money being transferred so will the administrators consider myself and people in similar position as creditors even though our balance on log in say otherwise? The fact it was transferred before the company went into liquidation should mean it should be honored. Is the raise to 50k assurance on IoM for KSF IoM clients also? When I spoke to somebody at Iceland branch of Kaupthing this morning I was told that Kaupthing parental bank was not responsible for IoM branch, yet all the material I have read says it is, including an email from customer service advisor at the branch last week which reiterated this. Surely the IoM branch cannot be ignored when Iceland and UK branches have been rescued? Why has our plight not be mentioned on national news at all and the situation be clarified? Presumably the meeting of liquidator outcome will not be made public till tomorrow so many of us will have a sleepless night tonight.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 17:03: Its unbelievable, All my hard earned money is hanging in the air. I've just retired and was hoping for a quiet retired life. I never took chances in stocks or risky transactions in my life. All the time KSF IOM assured me that the Bank was in a very strong position and had a protection plan, now it appears we are thrown out onto the street. I even don't know where and how to complain. I sent a registered mail instructing them to transfer the money on the 30th of October, but it never reached anywhere. Can anybody help? How should I complain, who should I contact? I wonder why IOM;s authorities are keeping quiet. I think they are forgetting that it will affect their future too as an offshore haven. All other countries have a protection scheme in place.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 16:33: ANON has a point we shall see. The Swiss banks? We are not hearing much about them are we? Perhaps they have all these ethereal funds? As regards offshore banking it must be very cruel for people who do not live in the Isle of Man but those of us who have and who are aware of what goes on secretly know that there is usually some other agenda for banks and anyone to even operate from low tax areas. I am not saying that London, New York, etc are pure but if you bank in a little place like the Island then it has long been known that there is a risk...It is just that the rapid expansion here, new offices, increased population and vastly better economy and jobs has served to mask the reality..it has diluted our instinctive conservatism..Anyone who knew the Island before the finance sector will know what I mean because the true Manxman was always sceptical..and they were right..They always said that the Island was being used and spoiled...Island banks have always been heavily used to collect money for use in the same group elsewhere. Indeed at the recent Isle of Man dinner held at the Mansion House in London with the Lord Mayor it was blazed abroad that the Island collects funds to be re-cycled in the City. I thought that most people knew that offshore banks were little better then shells.
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 16:32: Kindly asking all those customers of Kaupthing Isle of Man to keep in touch with others in the same boat over at these forums:
Also you can write to the UK Treasury at this address:
There are some sample letters on the first forum link above.
And write to your MP if you live in the UK. Thanks.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 16:15: Two Points…
Like RH I made my transfers on Tuesday afternoon by Swift/Chaps from both Kaupthing Edge and KSF IOM and both were acknowledged and confirmed and funds removed from my K Edge account. I have printed copies of the confirmations together with reference numbers for the transactions. I have also sent e-mails to both banks which remain unanswered. As these transactions are documented were confirmed before the Banks went into receivership, I feel that they should be honoured.
Can anyone give an opinion on this? Also like RH can anyone make sure this information gets to the administrator for due consideration?
Thank you Joanna for your immediate response my request for "noise" by talking to your MP. I for one am going to e-mail Sky News in an
attempt to get the issue raised on TV. I urge all other depositors to follow Joanna's example and make as much noise as possible with anyone/everyone to get the facts of the situation published. After all, we have nothing else to loose and if we don't say anything I am sure we will be swept under the carpet as yet more victims of the "Global Crunch".
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 15:52: Great having a bailout but unfortunately that means that 500 Billion put into the banks from the taxpayers then at least half if not more will be going out to Asia with increasing outsourcing to save money and then increasing taxes to pay for the lost jobs until the UK government will then have to ask Asia to bail the UK gov out. Beyond credulity that they could not insist on ending the outsourcing of work and the reduction of staff which then leads to repossessions and reduced savings and eventually reduced tax income to the gov. It is the 5 year disaster plan in action......
TOM PULUCZEK MBA
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 15:43: There are three lessons for all depositers in KSF and other banks. The first is that plainly one cannot put money safely away in an old established bank any longer and forget about it. But the second point in these uncertain times is not to tie one's money up in term accounts without instant access. Many depositers have been frustrated by their inability to move and disperse funds due to having been gulled into taking 1 yr bonds or even 90 day deposit accounts. Once there is a run on a bank, there is quickly a stampede and the money will not be there if you are at the end of the queue. Surely the third lesson it that this is the death knoll for banking with island banks - on any island - where the size of the local economy is dwarfed by the scale of deposits. My guess is that offshore banking is finished - whether it be Iceland, IOM, JerseyGuernsey or the Caribbean - and that is going to affect a lot of island economies which have come to depend on it. The money has been shifting to the mainland or to Ireland where deposits are being fully protected.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 15:30: I'm in the UK and am an account-holder with Kaupthing in the IoM. I've asked my MP to raise with HMT the possibility of the ING protections being extended to off-shore depositors. Anyone in the same position might like to do the same - the more noise we make, the better.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 15:25: Exactly as the last contributor.....I transferred out 1.5m online by CHAPS at 1339 on Tuesday 9th October......and it has not arrived at the destination Bank.
It was removed from my Kaupthing account mid Tuesday afternoon and so now that 1.5m is in neither account.
I trust that the Administrator will be aware of all these monies in the 'ether'.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 14:47: Like many others I was a long term with Derbyshire IOM when it taken over by KSF.
As an expat I was advised that I should keep my funds "offshore" for tax reasons. After the take over by KSF I increased my deposits with their assurances and after checking their credit rating.
Sadly, like many others I rather sat like a "rabbit in the headlights" watching the BBC and Sky News over the past week and did not move my funds in the mistaken belief that if we all moved our funds the bank would certainly collapse. On Tuesday I finally decided to act and attempted to transfer by Swift/CHAPS 580K (60 years old / life savings] which was accepted and confirmed by the online access to my accounts. Needless to say nothing has arrived at my receiving bank.
Under the present circumstances I think the best we can hope is that the UK Government / Chancellor steps in and bails out the Isle of Man Banks just as he did with Icesave accounts in the UK. Sadly I very much doubt if it will happen, however I would welcome others in the same situation to make as much noise as possible by talking to the press and writing to whoever in an attempt to get the ball rolling.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 14:24: ANON...There's still a chance...I have known money sent same day service to buy houses on completion get lost and miss the completion...especially if it involves a bank that is not one of the big mainline banks...or one of the former building societies...It may be in transit...Go to this afternoon's meeting at the Gaiety 3pm...The tragedy is that if like me you scour the so called quality papers, listen to Radio 4 and BBC World Service..and read the small print in the boring magazines then you get a good idea of what is going on and what inevitably would happen...I was once a City shipbroker and called ahead of time for my clients the great global shipping crash of 1981 and said it would last 20 years...I was fired!...I was wrong. The shipping slump was 23 years!..It also helps to have had grandparents born in 1882 who were able to tell you about the old days ie Don't trust banks!..I very much follow Roger Bootle the economist of Capital Economics who like me was called "Doom and Gloom" and was taunted in the City...Now he is on the box and radio all the time...Told you so!...I agree with binning the Yuppie breed that has taken over since the 1980s because I was once a broker in the City from 1970 and no one wanted my rather more cautious/conservative act by 1981-2. Even then I said it was all going to end in tears especially when I saw seventeen year olds approving mortgages over the phone and getting a fortune in commission..I did have a go myself at the "modern City" and tried share dealing but I just choked on the lies I was expected to tell over the phone to people I had never met. I was getting almost 100 a phone call I made in 1983 but I felt sick taking money off people like ANON and talking about things for which I had merely memorised a script...I also sold pensions and policies also having been given a script..It was literally acting...when I finally left after a few weeks of this it was like being let out of prison to be free and innocent again...Like I said...I saw it coming but not in its present form...The wonder is that it has taken so long...I also learnt to never trust banks and people with a funny unpronounceable name not written in English...never failed yet!
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 14:19: I was not in the least impressed by the Tynwald debate, too little and too slow. It only served to highlight the weakness of the whole system. It is up to the Manx media to point out to the general public that the new manx depositor protection scheme is in no way equivalent to the u.k. scheme. It is vastly inferior in so many ways as to be practically useless unless you want to wait 20 yrs to get back a very small percentage of your savings. To the normal depositor over here I would say get your money out to the uk or some other sensible jurisdiction offering real security, at least until all this blows over – which could be a very long time. I'm sure there are more shocks to come.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 14:17: I feel particularly upset about the Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander (IOM) saga. I originally opened 1 year fixed term Manx Bonds with the then Derbyshire IOM (I am based in Derbyshire) and had placed a significant sum of our company pension funds in there. When I had the letter saying they were being taken over by KSF, I confess I had never heard of them, but they seemed to check out OK. Several months ago there were rumblings in the press about them and other Icelandic banks, but I was reassured by the ex-Derbyshire staff who worked there (big mistake) Two of these bonds containing the bulk of our funds mature at the end of October. I don't think I can hold my breath till then.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 13:36: I put all my pension savings into a long-standing British bank called Singer & Friedlander. When it became Kaupthing, I never thought anything of it. Little did I realise that it was now a subsidiary of an Icelandic bank and that the Icelandic banking sector was run by high-marketing specialists who don't seem to care what happens to people like me who, at 66, rely on the money I have there to live a decent life. I just really don't know what I shall do now. All the effort I made to provide for my old age has been thrown away. Let anyone reading this beware of banks that get taken over. I hope all the authorities of the world work hard to turn banks back into respected institutions that look after people's savings and not the greedy, growth-oriented organisations employing rough-necks as "market makers".
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 13:16: ANON Treasury Minister has just made allusion to a long shot possibility that other banks may "buy" the deposits/depositors in the failed bank whatever that means...also they are not going to charge interest on claims under the protection scheme...Also they point out that for all their words neither Ireland nor the Channel Islands have shown any proof or legislation of their deposit guarantees and there seems to be confusion as to whether or not Irish guarantees actually do cover accounts in the Isle of Man...It is also confirmed that the Island simply cannot afford to guarantee everyone..The Island's protection scheme also may operate quicker in future and not take so many years as funds may be raised by such as borrowing....The fog of war I think...In the meantime the Island may well be better off than most as it is such a small target ie. the bigger they are the harder they fall..
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 13:13: Savers with accounts at Kaupthing Isle of Man may want to follow these threads on website forums to keep up with news about recent developments and discussion by other customers facing the same situation:
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 13:09: I transferred via CHAPS the most of my account on Thuesday 7th. It has gone from my account, along with the fee. It has not arrived at my linked account however, and now I am sick with fear for it. How can a system, CHAPS, a same day money transfer not complete the transaction? The bank was trading on the 7th, and this should not have happened. And where is the money? I know many, many people are in the same boat. I like many have worked and saved very hard for many years to accrue this money. I have not gambled it on the stock market, I have placed it with regulated bank, it is supposed to be safe! I can only hope that another company buys KSF IoM, the IoM goverment gaurantee to compensate all the depositors or the UK steps in to ensure their statement that no British saver has lost a penny from any banking failure. Whatever happens, this is a black day for many.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 12:44: From their website, it looks like KE in the UK has been rescued by ING with all depositors secure. Also KE in Iceland has been rescued by Iceland's government. The Isle of Man operation seems to have been crippled because of loans it had to make to these parent outfits. It seems rather unfair that we should be the only ones left in the ordure.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 12:28: Talk of eventual compensation of a small percent just adds insult to injury. We have lost our lifes savings. The whole lot. We have spent the last 20 years being frugal, sensible and trusting governments and institutions. We never had everything in one basket. We were never greedy or took risks to make big bucks, we just worked. Hard. For the first time all our money was in one place and just about to be transferred to Australia. This is so difficult to write as we are simply in shock. My wife is inconsolable; we had a very close and loving relationship but this is going to probably be too big an event even for our love of each other to hold us together. This will shatter us. And probably many like us.
Yet we still hear and read politicians and financial regulators babbling on about how depositors will be eventually compensated with a couple of thousand here and a couple of thousand there. To them i just look in complete and utter distaste and contempt; they obviously have no awareness about how this has affected people like me and our families.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 11:56: ANON...For what it is worth I am so very, very sad for you and the more so since for some years now I have been writing in the local papers warning that a crash was bound to come...possibly more so on Manx Radio three or four years back and was at one time censured from within Tynwald...When I predicted a drop in house prices by 50% on the Island by 2011 and elsewhere I was howled at and was known by everyone as "Doom and Gloom"...I did not forsee that the problem would come about in the way that it has...There are no glories for being Cassandra prophet of doom. As I write I am listening to the broadcast from Tynwald where the Treasury Minister has been criticised for not back-dating the new scheme when the announcement was made and only after taking it to the House for approval. You will get something back after about five years I heard one MHK just say but it will be an insult in the circumstances! The BCCI compensation scheme has only just closed after the bank crashed in 1991...An MHK has also just said that 1996 companies (banks?) are not covereed by the scheme?...Whatever that means?..Companies are not protected by the compensation scheme and IF they lose their deposits they go down..
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 10:54: We had deposited 161K with Kaupthing to allow us to exchange to Aussie dollars. Which should have happened yesterday. 33000 or 50000 is generally meaningless. We have lost our lifes savings. Everything has gone, despite assurances from governments and financial institutions.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 09, 2008 10:42: How many more times! It is not a guarantee! It's a chocolate teapot at the moment! A lot of people have fallen for it! Unless of course Tynwald makes substantial changes this morning...and when will they come into force? Far from making the Island look more secure various offshore finance advisers on their websites are pointing out the weakness of the Island's scheme. Let us take the local Icelandic bank as an example under present auspices of the scheme as I see it taken from the FSC website. Say Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander owed depositors 10,000,0000 Suppose the winding up/liquidation took three years. Suppose the bank has nothing to pay creditors and depositors. As from today the few, the very few banks actually in the scheme would each begin to pay 250,000 a year into a fund allocated for the purpose of paying out depositors in this bank. Say there are six banks obliged to contribute. The actual number may be more but just as an example. This means an income for compensation of 1,500,000 per annum such that after three years there would be 4,500,000 in the "kitty" theoretically available for distribution less the interest charge the FSC levies each claimant on their claim. Also, the FSC owns the claim and not the miserable depositor! Assuming the bank had nothing left then the FSC would start doling out claimants from this miserable 4,500,000 against liabilities of 10,000,000. The next year the participating banks would pay in another 6 x 250,000 so only 1,500,000 would be available annually thereafter against original claims totalling 10 million! This is under the present scheme which would take years to pay out as the FSC confirms on its website in bold print. Maybe the Icelandic authorities will help out? Maybe the UK will help out as they have promised to do in the adjacent Island? Maybe the Isle of Man Government will make an exception and bail out the savers in Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander? Things move faster than we can write about them. We shall have to wait for Tynwald.
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 08, 2008 17:36: Thank goodness Tynwald is finally acting to increase the depositors guarantee to match the UK. This emergency sitting on Thursday 9th October is not likely to reduce confidence in the island and more likely to raise it. The 'credit crunch' problem came from outside and firm and fast action will demonstrate that the Isle of Man government can respond to such outside pressures, maintaining banking confidence and stability as far as the government can. The first island bank to hit serious trouble, Kaupthing, Singer & Friedlander must have its private depositors protected to demonstrate the safety of Manx banks. A failure to do this will send a message that savings deposits here are not secure. The subsequent exodus of money from the island will destroy the economy, wipe out life savings and collapse house prices.
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 08, 2008 17:36: Jeremy in Vancouver! We cannot emphasis enough that the Island's scheme is absolutely no guarantee whatsover and again I urge you to Google Isle of Man FSC website Depositors Compensation Scheme...Claims for compensation may take many years and the FSC says so in bold type! If I were you I'd shift it out and under the mattress or buy Ernie Bonds!...Or hide it down one of those disused nickel mines I went down once outside Vancouver...Unless Tynwald, the Island's Parliament, changes the rules totally tomorrow of course!
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 08, 2008 17:49: This is for our friend in Vancouver...I am no expert...However, the Island is very much run on the same lines as Westminster and for that matter I am sure the Canadian Federal and Provincial legislatures...The law comes into action when Tynwald says so at an appointed time...How I don't know they may have laws in place or some ministerial instrument...However, the chances are that if your bank goes bust before the law changes and the Order is made you will come under the old scheme of compensation and not the enhanced 50,000 scheme..etc...But I am just putting out general knowledge...I cannot see them backdating it from tomorrow to cover what happened today and I suggest you get on the Internet and read the Depositors Compensation Scheme on the Island's FSC website...Or ask the FSC here in Douglas..In example, a long time ago in 1942 my family had a factory...it was bombed at 11.45 pm by the Germans...The compensation scheme passed by Parliament came into force at midnight...they got nothing!...I think it is much the same now but I might be wrong..
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 08, 2008 17:11: Dear Sir, Can you confirm if the Manx protection scheme (if approved) will only apply to accounts in banks that are operating at the time the bill is passed ? For example in the case of the Derbyshire Offshore Bank – will these savings be guaranteed up to 50,000 pounds even though the bank collapsed before the bill was passed ?
JEREMY NEILL, Vancouver
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 08, 2008 17:06: This I hope is in exceedingly bad taste and a good example of gallows humour. Sadly, the "Al" referred to is hardly ever likely to be Treasury Minister Allan Bell....Oh! You never know though...What is that in Manx "Time enough?"...Fortunately. Last I looked the original Noble's Soup Kitchen was still in good repair down round the back of Hill Street way is it? Or Tynwald Street?....Mmmm? Oatmeal skilly! Yum!...."They used to tell me I was building a dream And so I followed the mob. When there was earth to plow or guns to bear, I was always there, right on the job. They used to tell me I was building a dream With peace and glory ahead --Why should I be standing in line, just waiting for bread? Once I built a railroad, I made it run, Made it race against time. Once I built a railroad, now it's done -Brother, can you spare a dime? Once I built a tower, up to the sun, brick and rivet and lime. Once I built a tower, now it's done --Brother, can you spare a dime? Once in khaki sui ts, gee, we looked swell Full of that Yankee Doodle-de-dum. Half a million boots went slogging through hell, And I was the kid with the drum. Say, don't you remember they called me Al, It was Al all the time. Why don't you remember, I'm your pal --Say, buddy, can you spare a dime? Once in khaki suits, ah, gee, we looked swell Full of that Yankee Doodle-de-dum. Half a million boots went slogging through hell, And I was the kid with the drum. Say, don't you remember they called me Al, It was Al all the time. Why don't you remember, I'm your pal --Buddy, can you spare a dime?" (Euro)
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 08, 2008 16:48: Sadly Anon, the leap into action of the present compensation scheme is unlikely. There are only a few banks able or obliged to even participate. Presently they would pay just 250,000 a year into a fund only when a bank goes bust and even then savers would have to wait for the receivership and liquidation process to complete and that takes years. Then, if the crashed bank can pay nothing or little the compensation is taken out of the banks' accumulated 250,000 a year. ie three years receivership/liquidation proceedings and six banks means just 1,500,000 in the kitty against how much?. No bank presently is obliged to pay in more than 250,000 a year and so if claims total millions people will have to wait their turn in line as the sums are doled out...."Fetch my brown trousers down mother!"
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 08, 2008 16:13: The Isle of Man's response to all this banking misery is woefully slow and woefully inadequate. Anybody with any sense has got his money away from this Island to somewhere where guarantees mean something and where you can expect to get your money back in months as opposed to years. With the collapse of a bank this very afternoon it will be good to witness the Manx deposit protection scheme leap into action. The Island's banking sector and its overexposed subsidiaries of troubled U.K. banks could be in real trouble here an things are moving unpredictably and very fast.
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 08, 2008 11:30: The Depositors Compensation Scheme does not secure your savings as a correspondent comments. Far from it! In fact it is almost worthless! It is not a guarantee. Claims may take many years to process. The Financial Supervision Commission (FSC) admits this on its website. I note that the warning as to claims taking many years to produce any result is now picked out in bold type and I may be wrong but I do not think that it was so bold yesterday or the days before! Also, you pay interest to the FSC on your claim through all those many years you will be waiting! Some scheme that!
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 08, 2008 11:21: Thank you BARRIE, I understood your last post ! And please excuse my previous post misspelling your name.
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 08, 2008 10:54: Why the delay? Partly expediency. It makes little difference really as things have gone so far that we do not even know if the UK's plan will succeed! Our mickey mouse plan means mothing in the great scheme of things. Secondly, holding an emergency session of Tynwald is not good politics and sends the wrong signal. If you want a crash call an emergency Tynwald! Also, one has to remember that the Isle of Man is not an independent sovereign state like those other countries mentioned. The Island is a Crown Dependency and its powers are pendant from the Crown. It has no central bank other than the Bank of England indirectly and the UK Treasuy where it keeps a large part of the Island's money and investments partly to support local currency. The Treasury of the Island is ultimately a Crown entity. The Island's powers of internal self-government depend very much on Tynwald and its procedure because it is the existence and tradition of Tynwald that gives the right for internal legis lation to even exist. Start by-passing Tynwald and you destroy the reason for it and the Island's constitutional existence. Consequently, legislation, or amending legislation to the existing depositor's compensation scheme, more than likely calls for Tynwald to pass such amending legislation. It all depends on what is already legislated for and the means by which it may be altered or amended. Making legislation on the hoof as a Minister is not usually possible on the Island whose laws, most of them require Royal Assent from the Privy Council or in some instances Royal Assent from the Lt. Governor. The UK being sovereign has ministers of the Crown who can obtain Orders in Council empowering direct action, can create Statutory Instruments to make legislation or regulation on the hoof or such as Ministerial Orders. It all depnds on what UK law empowers the Chancellor to do. Maybe they got their legal powers right at the first attempt? Allan Bell is not a Chancellor. He is the Treasury Minister of a Crown Dependency and receives his power as Minister from the Lt. Governor. Tynwald usually passes an amendment to any existing act. Orders in Council extend UK law to the Island and statutory instruments often bring Island law into line with the UK as amended. I am not sure if Allan Bell or the Council of Ministers could even issue a Ministerial Order or similar and so probably it has to go through Tynwald to make it both legal and constitutional.
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 08, 2008 09:02: Well I've heard it all now,Mr Bell said that when Tynwald comes back from its over-extended holidays,the 50,000 bank depositors guarantee upgrade will be debated by Tynwald,and if approved will operate from then, that's 2 weeks time,just in time for the anniversary of the 1929 Wall Street Crash which happened on the 24th October. My God,what kind of planet is he living on,the UK Government via Chancellor Darling approved it yesterday Tuesday,and it should operate here as well,money markets won't wait for this lot here to debate it,meanwhile depositors will not accept this and move their funds,and in the mean time if a bank goes under,the depositors here will only get 15,000. I think its time we got rid of this lot of no hopers,its being proven time and time again,we don't need overpaid jobs for the boys, duplicating most of the UK Legislation,and following the EU like lambs to the slaughter.
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 07, 2008 11:05: I think this might be more up to date as from about eight hours ago today! However, it still not clear as to how much of a risk Jersey is taking with its own funds. It is also subject to their parliamentary approval. So confident is Jersey in the strength of the banking system that, subject to the final approval of the States, they are giving a guarantee that residents' deposits will be fully protected. The confidence of the ministers is based upon the fact that the banks which operate in Jersey are all branches or subsidiaries of parent banks that are in the world's top 500. It is further strengthened by the fact that over 90% of Jersey resident deposits are with banks in the world's top 100 whose home countries, almost without exception, have pledged to support them. The Jersey Financial Services Commission is approaching the home countries concerned to ensure that the support offered to banks extends to the Jersey branch or subsidiary to cover the possibility that the support of the parent bank and its home country is not forthcoming. The ministers are to recommend to the States that the bank deposits of Island residents should be fully protected. So its not a done deal then! As far as more general depositor protection is concerned, the Economic Development Minister has already announced an urgent, comprehensive review, in which the finance industry and the Financial Services Commission will be fully involved long term. They are determined that both now and in the future, the States will take "whatever steps are necessary" to maintain confidence in Jersey as a sound and safe international finance centre, and to protect the people of Jersey. Jersey and Guernsey have been working closely together on this issue. Looks like a fair bit of spin in there? What is this Island doing...the same?....
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 07, 2008 10:37: Sorry folks. My apologies. Just noticed that the Jersey Today website is a little out of date so my reading on their 100% bank guarantee was of October 3rd....Res ipsa loquiter! Should have spotted that!
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 07, 2008 10:27: Res ipsa loquiter Geoff!...The thing speaks for itself...But seriously...It is not that Jersey is definitely going to guarantee savings 100%. The idea, the concept or proposition is now being put to the States Parliament in Jersey. Details will be reported on Saturday evening in detail in the Jersey Evening Post and then the scheme will be put to the States on next Monday..This is not the same as saying it is a done deal! It may fall over when the members see the potential damage! The Isle of Man has not even got this far. Of course, it shows the markets that they are doing something but clearly it has to go through their legislature and we do not know, and I suspect neither do they, as to how it can be funded. Jersey also needs the Royal Assent in some form unless legislation is in place. Jersey is currently in deficit. Their banking deposits are bigger than this Island's but maybe they have bigger reserves. Assuming that their currency is backed on the same basis as the Isle of Man I fail to see how they can issue a blanket guarantee in the name of government and taxpayer. I have raised this issue below in an earlier posting. As regards the Island, I think it would be very difficult to start indulging in 100% guarantees if this were possible. The Isle of Man's Treasury, which is ultimately a Crown entity, might have some ideas and could even now be the drag anchor, but this Island is bound by the no National Debt concept. Does this apply to Jersey also? I stand to be corrected but I think the Isle of Man maybe is too poor to give 100% guarantees without prejudicing the progress of the past 20 years. They have gone very quiet have they not?....so far anyway!...The MHK's proposal that the banks guarantee the savings seems rather odd. How can potentially dodgy banks guarantee themselves and each other? The MHKs have not said how their plan would work so far as I am aware. How can we take it and them seriously? At the end of the day it is a risk fac tor. There is no harm in guaranteeing something that probably will not happen but I suspect the Isle of Man will just have to keep low for a while. Watch and wait!
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 07, 2008 09:34: Ok BARRY. You win. I have to admit I am unable to fully understand any of the points you are making - either in Latin or English.
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 07, 2008 08:02: I hear that Jersey has announced a 100% guarantee to investors, surely now we have no choice but to do the same?
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 07, 2008 00:30: Salveta Plebeius! What I think you are saying Plebeius is, "Facta non verba! Sedit qui timuit ne non succederet"..."Action not words. He who feared he would not succeed sat still." To which Allan Bell would say, "aut viam inveniam aut faciam."...."I'll either find a way or make one".....I suspect Allan Bell might be saying that quite a lot at the moment actually. Long time since I did Latin and was forced to read Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. However Nero did not fiddle it was a lyre! It was not the dying days of Rome far from it. Rome arose in greater splendour than before because the fire cleared away the rubbish, the slums and the filth! How apt a comparison! Nero then instigated a massive house building and public works programme. No credit crunch then. Of course the reason that Rome was not built in a day was because Dandara was not on that job. Tynwald at times resembles more Frankie Howerd in "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum" rather than the venerable Forum Romanum although the Circus Maximus might draw a fair comparison. "Titter ye not!". My attitude is summed up as follows, "tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito. Forsan at haec meminisse juvabit"..."Yield not to misfortunes but advance all the more boldly against them. One day even the remembrance of these things might give us pleasure."....Quite! Comments on a wax tablet please in your sharpest stylus.
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
MONDAY, OCTOBER 06, 2008 23:49: I've read that the new UK gov 50,000 safety guarantee on deposits will cover 98% of people's total savings. I have also read that 2% of investors in the UK possess something like 90% of all the money in savings deposits. So by just making a very few, very wealthy people nervous about the security of their savings in the UK.....they risk seeing a very large part of investments depart is search of safer shores, (or PERCEIVED safer havens,) in very short order. I would guess that the situation here in the IoM is similar, and the lack of any action or resolve by our so called leaders, has seen Manx accounts empty. I would be willing to bet a large amount, (not that I have any serious money still here on the IoM,) that the 52.7 billion that was supposed to be invested here, no longer is.
MONDAY, OCTOBER 06, 2008 17:26: I agree with Plebious. Depositors are sorely tempted to move their funds to Ireland or other jurisdictions where promised protection appears to far outstrip the 15,000 pittance on offer here. The Isle of Man still has its Finance Sector as its largest source of taxation income, and also a very large provider for thousands of workers. Depositors and investors choosing to move their funds elsewhere would put this into jeopardy, but that is precisely what they are inviting by giving such low protection, as compared to elsewhere. Action is long overdue.
MONDAY, OCTOBER 06, 2008 13:58: In Rome's dying days, Nero's marketing unit issued a press release telling the plebs "not to worry, as he was monitoring the situation". Later, it was revealed that Nero was simply fiddling while Rome burnt. Perhaps ministers who bask in the glory of the Isle of Man being a World Leader in Finance should consider putting their own fiddles down. It's time to act on the longstanding call by Positive Action Group (see website www.positiveactiongroup.org) to give Island depositors100% protection.
MONDAY, OCTOBER 06, 2008 10:50: I question whether the Isle of Man and Jersey have the power to issue government backed Guarantees because they are Crown Dependencies and their governments have no independent existence outside of the British state. In fact they have no legal existence at all! Ultimately the Islands are covered by UK Sovereign risk as opposed to an independent Ireland. Are they able to commit what is effectively British Government on the Islands to a Guarantee as might sovereign nations? At the end of the day they might arguably be committing the UK Government in an offshore centre which does not seem quite the thing for the UK to do? Things move so fast! The FSC website still says that UK and Irish guarantees do not apply on the Island. I think as eorh here says there is a catch in it. I would say it is more of a case of Irish banks in the Island guaranteeing the savings of existing depositors in both Ireland and here because so many people have Manx accounts with Irish Banks and some of them are very naughty people who may not want to break surface! They don't want the Irish pulling their money out of Irish banks on the Island rather than attracting new accounts. The Island might have a problem with issuing Guarantees as a Government. Some MHKs are calling for the banks to fund the Guarantee as at present but why should they? And what legislation can make them do so at present? How long would such legislation if needed take to put in place? Secondly, I hear when listening to Radio 4, that if the UK were to use Government-back guarantees then this will add trillions to the UK National Debt which broadly is the gap between present spending balanced by taxable income and the total debt of the country. Effectively the National Debt, such as a blanket Guarantee, mortgages the taxpayers of many generations into the future! The UK of course can print money (inflation). The Island can issue money but it has to back it up by keeping large duplicate sums in the UK Treasury. Can the Island's taxpapers even afford to back a Guarantee? The Isle of Man is not supposed to run up a National Debt for constitutional reasons which is why it always claims to have a balanced debt-free budget. So I ask is the Island in a position to offer Gurantees if the banks refuse to do so? I also ask if Jersey's planned Guarantee will actually be like the UK and other countries state backed Guarantees and not more like the Island's compensation scheme?
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
SUNDAY, OCTOBER 05, 2008 11:55: Reading the comments from BA and Barry seems to put the people on the Isle of Man in a bad position as to what to do with their pennies,first Ireland and now Greece have given this 100% guarantee,but according to the Daily Mail these countries have not got the vast amount of money to pay out IF their banks go bust,now today there is news of another bank in Europe on the verge. I got told the other day that the Irish banks are giving out printed statements that here on the Isle of Man the 100% deposit guarantee applies here,but that you can't go in to them and start an account with say 10,its big amounts that they want. It is all confusing,so maybe the best way would be to put it all under the mattress until these financial whiz kids sort it all out,what seems to me is if anything goes wrong it will be the small saver who will suffer,and not the big boys. Meanwhile our Manx Chancellor is dithering as usual.
SUNDAY, OCTOBER 05, 2008 06:00: Watch out for yer wonga! Get a grip on yer spondoolies! Be warned that on the Isle of Man and Channel Islands billions are held in deposit accounts and investment funds in less then secure circumstances. Irish and UK guarantee schemes do not extend to the Island. Jersey currently has no protection scheme but proposes soon to introduce a guarantee for full protection as reported. The Isle of Man so far has a Depositors Compensation Scheme (DCS). However it is not a 100% guarantee like and Ireland. There is no "kitty" or fund collected in advance, compensation may take many years and you will be charged interest on your claim! The DCS currently compensates people who have money in current and deposit accounts in the Isle of Man with 75% of up to 20,000 of net deposits per depositor per bank, if the bank fails. This means maximum compensation payable is 15,000 per depositor – this amount would be paid to someone with 20,000 or more. Loans may be netted off against deposits you have with the same bank. eg if you have a total of 32,000 in current and deposit accounts, but a mortgage of 18,000, your net deposits are 14,000. The DCS would pay you 75% (or ) of 14,000 in compensation, ie 10,500. If there are sufficient funds on liquidation of the failed bank, the remaining 3,500 would be paid from the liquidation proceeds. The DCS covers individuals, companies and trusts who have bank accounts in the Isle of Man, whichever country they are resident in. Payment is per depositor, not per account, therefore each person who shares a joint account can receive compensation, but if you have more than one account you won't receive more than one compensation payment. Compensation is paid out of levies collected from other banks in the Isle of Man. Levies are collected at a maximum of 250,000 per bank per year. As there are a limited number of banks which pay levies, it may take many years for compensation to be paid to depositors. This period will also vary according to when liquidation proceeds are collected from the failed bank and how much is recovered. There is no "standing fund" of compensation (i.e. money is not collected before a bank failure). All banks in the Isle of Man that are licensed to take deposits are members of the DCS. Some banks, which do not take deposits, are not members of the DCS. Your deposits with each banking licence holder (i.e. bank that is licensed in the Isle of Man) are covered separately, even if they are part of the same group. Share and deposits accounts with building societies in the Isle of Man are not covered by the DCS. Deposit compensation schemes in the UK, Ireland or elsewhere do not cover deposits with banks or building societies in the Isle of Man. In order to claim compensation you will have to assign your rights to the whole deposit to the DCS manager and you will be charged interest on the amount of your claim. The Island's Financial Supervision Commission (FSC) administers the DCS as the Scheme Manager. The Isle of Man also has a scheme to compensate investors in authorised collective investment schemes. Known as the ACISCS it partially compensates you if an authorised collective investment scheme in which you have invested fails to pay you when money is due to you. Compensation may be due to you if a manager or trustee of an authorised collective investment scheme fails to repay you when required by the terms of the scheme. Compensation payable is as follows : 100% of the first 30,000 90% of the next 20,000 with a maximum compensation of 48,000 Compensation is paid out of levies collected from other authorised scheme managers and trustees in the Isle of Man. There is no "standing fund" of compensation i.e. money is not collected in advance. The above gathered mainly from FSC website so Google it if you have any moolah banked on the Island!
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 03, 2008 20:41: I have just looked at the Financial Supervision Commissions information on the Depositors' Compensation Scheme (http://www.gov.im/fsc/investor/dep_comp.xml) - please note 'compensation', not 'guarantee' as in the Irish or Northern Rock schemes. Some things we all need to be aware of. As stated below in the thread there is maximum compensation of 15,000 irrespective of how much money you have in an account. If you also have loans, such as a mortgage with the bank, the loan may be netted off against the deposits you have. The scheme is not Government backed - it is funded by the banks here with maximum contribution into the scheme of 250,000 per bank per annum. As the FCS neatly put it - "As there are a limited number of banks which pay levies, it may take many years for compensation to be paid to depositors". The FCS also says "In order to claim compensation you will have to assign your rights to the whole deposit to the DCS manager and you will be charged interest on the amount of your claim". That presumably is to allow them to hold onto anything above the 75% or 15,000 (whichever is the greater) - but why they would charge you interest is something that even an enquiry to FSC staff were unable to answer. When asked - "you'll have to ask the accountant"- was their well informed reply. So in summary based on the FCS website - the Manx compensation scheme is not government backed, has a very limited consumer protection, is likely to take a long time to be paid out and in the meantime wilst you are waiting it will be accruing interest that the DCS manager will charge you before giving you any money back. I wonder how many people who deposit monies here in offshore banks are aware of the compensation situation - or to what extent the FSC in its role of 'protecting the public interest' have made them aware of it? If they did how many depositors would now be sending money to Ireland - particularly if it was their pension savings?
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 03, 2008 00:41: EORH....I agree one hundred percent with you. It's all loaded in the favour of the banks, small investors (or quite large) loose. The Irish example has to be the one to follow.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 02, 2008 09:12: Mr Bell and the treasury are reviewing the situation,this sounds like Fagin singing in the musical Oliver,the English newspapers are saying that Gordon Brown is dithering on this,Mr Bell has been dithering since early this year. Its time to act now,to protect the small saver who cannot afford to lose,remember the Savings and Investment Bank crash,the Manx Government soon moved to alter the regs after that,in fact I remember it well,I was in that bank the day before it crashed,people were still putting money in. What ever happens people who put money into a bank are in fact lending it to them,they expect interest on it,and if they want to withdraw they want it in full,when a bank lends money it wants its interest and the amount paid back in full,now if the person who borrowed from the bank can't pay,they forfeit their house,so the bank doesn't lose,which means that it should work both ways,if the bank crashes which means it can't pay back, what can the depositor claim, it looks like only 75%,or a maximum of 15000. If people want to get the best deal by using other banks good luck to them,I thought they were in competition with one another,the one way to stop all this would be to do as Ireland has done.
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 01, 2008 15:31: Ireland may in fact be more of a threat to the Finance Sector than is realised! Ireland is to be investigated for offering 100% guarantees on deposits as it may infringe EU competition rules. It may also be seen as nationalisation. Ireland has guaranteed 315 billion of retail and corporate deposits and funds are moving to Ireland. Other EU states are complaining. The Isle of Man would also be affected as although it is not in the EU, and not part of the EU Fiscal Area nor of the European Economic Area (EEA),its banks and other institutions trade in London most of them and whether UK corporate entities or not they agree to conform to Treasury and other UK/EU regulators...so the Isle of Man is not free to offer guarantees anyway...The threat is that the EU must either force Ireland to back down, or each EU member and other countries outside the EU join in and effectively play "beggar my neighbour"..which is what made the 1929 Crash and Depression so bad. If they all make 100% guarantees and follow Ireland's lead there will be fierce competition and will the Isle of Man be able to afford to follow?...and if not, will it lose funds and deposits? Like I say, It is the Finance Sector that's at stake but who knows which way it will go? Might even gain?...But as the President said "This sucker's going down."...and it will quite soon one way or another.
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas.
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 01, 2008 15:26: The Island could not offer, increase or extend any guarantees unless it is provided for by existing legislation. Any new legislation would require drafting, passing through Tynwald and the Royal Assent unless there is some means of extending an Order in Council which I doubt. The Island could not do something before the UK and show the way without the UK first granting the Royal Assent. How long would that take?
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas.
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 01, 2008 14:59: Mr Bell didn't invest 53.7 billion on the Island. Investors did, and if they think their money is not protected here they will move it to somewhere it is. This is a once in a lifetime chance to draw attention to IoM banking and to ease everyone's fears about the safety of their deposits. The Island government has a chance to lead the UK Gov. for once, instead of meekly following it as usual. It should at least guarantee personal deposits. Mr. Bell is a politician. I'd sooner trust a crocodile to watch out for my chicken sandwich then trust the word of a politician, only actions count.
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 01, 2008 14:21: In response to geoff The only logical response to that is for investors to spread their money as far and wide as possible if we aren't going to be afforded the same level of protection as uk (50,000) or Irish savers – there is no point taking risks – the banks have taken massive risks and this thing won't suddenlt get sorted out with the US bail out, which probably won't even work. The HBOS takeover seems to be hanging by a thread and overexposure to bad debt and recent investments make some of the island subsidiaries of well known uk banks a fair bit wobbly
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 01, 2008 14:19: It all depends on what sort of deposit it is. These guarantees are aimed at personal accounts which it is possible to cover in a limited way. However, the many billions reported by your correspondent consist mainly of managed funds handled by corporate banks and fund managers, insurance firms etc. They are responsible for the security of those funds and not the government. They could shift them off the Island at the swish of a mouse! There is a vast difference between opening a private deposit account and participating in a managed/hedge fund etc. Some funds make you a shareholder and the shareholders are not paid out in a rescue. The Government does not pay anyway. Whatever happens the money is ultimately taken from the taxpayer which thus limits any direct government security. Many deposits are covered by schemes funded by the banks but if your bank goes bust then you may still have to wait even some years for a payout from this co-operative scheme! It is different for Ireland. For one it is a sovereign country and the Island is not. It has major international banks but the Island's banks are subsidiaries or very limited capital takers of deposits with low liability in the event of a failure. The Island's Treasury comes under the Crown ie British Govt at the end of the day because the entire Island is underpinned by UK sovereign risk...Because Westminster is not represented in Tynwald by a sitting member the UK has no direct control over the Manx budget (Supply vote) but it can and does insist that the Island does not run up a national debt and which is why the Island boasts about its balanced budget! The Island would not be allowed to go mad on offering guarantees as Isle of Man Govt is still British Government.Where the Island is vulnerable is the Gulf War Syndrome ie If the US taxpayer has to stump up 700 billion and the rest!...then Obama, or whoever is in the White House, may use this as an excuse to "invade" such as the Island as already they say that US citizens should have no need to hold funds offshore!...Pressure might be put on the UK as the ruling power over the Island...In other words, the USA and others doing bailouts might want their money back to fund the "war effort" and the Island has signed many agreements on information exchange...It is not deposits that are vulnerable, it is the Finance Sector as many "banks" have used naughty money housed in the Island to fund operations elsewhere. We saw this in the case of Northern Rock. The best bits were on Jersey but in this instance, as it was a UK matter, Westminster chose not to force the Jersey Govt to pass legislation...This time its global and if the USA and EU etc want their tax funds back the UK will hardly resist with so much a stake. As President Bush said, "This sucker's going down!"...something has to go south and I don't mean way down south in Dixie!
BARRIE STEVENS, Douglas.
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 01, 2008 13:27: Before we start accusing Mr Bell of sticking his head in the sand we should realise that the total deposits on the Isle of Man on the 30th June 2008 was 53.77 BILLION pounds and the GDP of the island 2006/2007 was a mere 1.8 BILLION pounds. The Government publicly announcing guarantees of all deposits is easy, doing it is another thing altogether. Mr Bell and his team have done us well over the years and I think we should trust him to continue doing so.
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 01, 2008 12:42: The isle of man govt. has to come out now and say it will protect the islander's savings – do people realise you're only going to get back 75% of your savings up to 20,000 (i.e a max of 15,000) and nothing after that. Theoretically if you were rich enough and had 80,000 stashed in anisland bank you might just get 15 back. Banks have crashed on the island before and as the weeks draw out major banks could easily go to the wall. On the positive side houses over here could get much cheaper very quickly – not so much a slump as a precipice.
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 30, 2008 23:27: Is our Manx Government going to DO anything to allay fears on the Island regarding the world wide financial crisis? This is a wonderful opportunity for Mr. Bell to get positive publicity for the Island by saying the Government would guarantee 100% all deposits invested on the IoM. ( As Ireland has done.) I suppose they will just stick their heads in the sand as usual; and hope it all just goes away, without them having to do anything.