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>> Darling comments threaten to escalate into diplomatic row4 November 2008>> Darling accused of 'washing his hands' of Isle of Man depositors04 November 2008>> Petition to wind up Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander is adjourned24 October>>Desperate KSF customers withdrawing millions in run up to collapse24 October>> Singer & Friedlander Investment Management (IoM) bought by Thomas Miller Investment21 October>> More than £10m govt funds deposited with Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander21 October>>Bank crisis: Fears for £1 million Hospice deposit20 October>>Banking crisis: Treasury Minister warns this week is 'critical'20 October>>Kaupthing crisis: MHK urges alterations to compensation scheme17 October>> Kaupthing crisis needs political solution, says depositor16 October 2008>> UK to represent Isle of Man over Kaupthing collapse15 October 2008>> Scale of Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander collapse hits home13 October 2008>> Isle of Man pledges action on Kaupthing collapse10 October 2008>> Heated scenes at Kaupthing meeting9 October 2008>> Isle of Man records first major casualty of credit crunch9 October 2008>> Savings guarantee plan put forward by MHKs6 October 2008--------------
THIS THREAD HAS NOW CLOSED BUT COMMENTS CONTINUE ON A NEW THREAD:
ECONOMIC CRISISWEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 05, 2008 10:09: One of the major issues coming out of this affair is 'what happens to the IoM as a reputable banking centre going forward?' I a depositor wishes to have 'safe' banking then they are likely to more inclined towards Switzerland or Luxembourg in the future than IoM, simply because the safety net of £50,000 is not sufficient. The IoM authorities must either underwrite much larger sums or be far more vigorous in its licensing regime. Any thorough investigation of KSF would have shown that the bank was too heavily dependant on wholesale banking, without having sufficient 'funds' lodged in the IoM to cover their covenant. I believe that the banks in IoM should have to have a 15% cover. Basel II is not enough as recent events have shown.
GARY WILSONWEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 05, 2008 09:36: Dear Sir,
I am extremely confused by the news reports which declare that the Isle of Man is an off shore tax haven. To whom does this apply? Certainly not me; I am a UK citizen living in Spain and still have business interests in UK. When I informed my high street bank of the impending move to Spain I was told that I could no longer hold an account with them and this was also to be the case with a second account with high street bank which had originated from a mutual. Both banks suggested that I open an off shore account and I elected for S&F IOM which later became KSF. I have tax deducted at 22% by KSF on the interest from deposit accounts which is also declared by my accountant in my UK tax returns. So, who benefits from the tax deductions, UK or IOM?
RICHARD LEWENDONTUESDAY, NOVEMBER 04, 2008 07:48: Dear Sir
Sir, a kind request to read for your information and to consider for publication, a message directed to PM Mr. Gordon Brown, the Chancellor Mr. Darling and the uk Treasury? We will greatly appreciate it.
This is for and on behalf of 8000 Depositors of Kaupthing Singer Friedlander IOM and for the Isle of Man and it's community.
We are holding Mr. Gordon Brown and the culprit Mr. Darling accountable for their irresponsible and illegal acts that resulted in total chaos in the international community. We are being ignored by the UK government and we fear that this may be swept under the carpet. Thousands of savers who are ready for retirement have lost their life savings as you are well aware of. Most are expats working outside the UK, and cannot open a bank account within the borders of the UK.
We appreciate the IOM community and the IOM authority for being as level headed as they are in this fiasco.
Sir, your Island made provisions for us where the UK did not.
We are being classified as tax dodgers, but you know as well as we do that these remarks from Darling are filthy political tactics employed to try and cover up for his stupendous blunder.
You are fighting for the same cause as us, where we want our money back which was stolen from us by the UK and you want your respect and stable future back for the isle of Man, inflicted by the UK bully.
Thank you very much for your valuable time lent to us in reading this email
CV Kent
http://www.ksfiomdepositors.org/node/982#comment-12719
Dear Sir
You are aware that as a result of your noble action to safeguard British depositors in the UK, assets accrued from the 7000 plus international British depositors from KSF IOM , deposits amounting to aprox. 600 mil. Pounds are being retained in the UK, with obvious plans to distribute it to the unfortunate British depositors of KSF UK. Hereby ignoring and abandoning the British depositors of IOM to their fate. Adapting the easy out option, simply stating that the UK is not responsible for IOM affairs. IGNORING the FACT that the UK WAS responsible for the dilemma in the first place, not only that of IOM depositors, but also the final straw in downfall of Iceland and the stable future of IOM as an offshore facility.
("Acting on the advice of the Bank and FSA, in the light of announcements made by the Icelandic authorities in recent days...") See your quote below. Please explain what announcements made by the Icelandic authorities you are referring to here.
The only dialogue I am aware of is the telephone conversation between Darling and Mathieson, where Mathieson explicitly iterates that Iceland will honor its parental guarantee to all depositors, regardless of race, nationality, local or international.... unlike the guarantee of the UK limited merely to it's UK depositors, not even including the international UK depositors, let alone other nationalities.
Yes Iceland was in difficulties and was trying to explain this all along. AND NO Iceland is not a terrorist country, it's one of your fellow European nations, allbeight small, hardly a reason to knock it out. Not once did the Icelandic authorities deny their legal liabilities. Refer to the Darling transcript.
After this telephone conversation, the very next day, the PM Gordon Brown froze all Icelandic assets in the UK using his terrorist act as justification to do so...(there-by implying that the Icelandic government supports terrorist activities as well as us, the international British depositors) ...the Chancellor exercised it's authority, resulting in international chaos.
THIS Sir, is nothing but a big blunder on the part of our leaders, take care that it does not escalate into a scandal of epic proportions.
Sir, we have had enough, and we are not going to let one stone unturned in the fight to get our money back, money that was earned the hard and long way, our life earnings, money we saved for our children, money that was already taxed as we are ALL tax payers, money that we saved for our old days in order not to be a burden on society, OUR money that YOU have.
Please answer what the KSF UK Liquidator is hiding with the sealed court papers, why the confidential court proceedings? Why are the court papers sealed? Who had the papers sealed? These are some of the questions that springs to mind from our fellow depositors. I am sure if made public awareness, the media and public would also like to know.
We will not stand to be victims of political blunders committed by our leaders, we will hold them responsible for their actions.
Sir, I hereby IMPLORE you to take this message serious, as it is written for and on behalf of my 8000 friends and fellow depositors.
We would like you to take this further and we need an answer back as to what your intentions are with our money.
We simply need you to release our money and return it to it's rightful owners.
As you know, the court on IOM decided that it is most feasible not to liquidate KSF IOM, and an extension of 28 days was granted.
Awaiting your soonest reply.
Depositor KSF IOM
CV Kent
08 October 2008
Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander
1. Acting on the advice of the Bank and FSA, and in light of announcements made by the Icelandic authorities in recent days, the Chancellor has taken action today to protect the retail depositors in Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander, a UK-based banking subsidiary of Kaupthing Bank. He has taken this action to ensure the stability of the UK financial system. Savers' money is safe and secure.
2. Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander (KSF) is regulated by the FSA. The FSA has determined that Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander no longer meets its threshold conditions, and is likely to be unable to continue to meet its obligations to depositors. The FSA concluded that KSF is in default for the purposes of the Financial Services Compensation Scheme. The Treasury has used the Banking (Special Provisions) Act 2008 to ensure a resolution that preserves financial stability and provides protection and continuity of business for depositors.
3. KSF's Kaupthing Edge deposit business has been transferred to ING Direct, a wholly-owned subsidiary of ING Group, which operates through its branch in the UK. ING Direct is working to rapidly ensure that it is business as normal for all customers.
4. This action by the Tripartite Authorities protects savers' money and provides certainty for retail depositors. The transfer of the retail deposit books has been backed by cash from HM Treasury and the Financial Services Compensation Scheme.
5. The remainder of Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander business has been put into administration. Any retail depositors eligible to claim under the Financial Services Compensation Scheme whose business has not been transferred to ING Direct will be paid out in full through the Financial Services Compensation Scheme.
6. This is the right course of action to protect savers, ensure financial stability, and safeguard the interests of the taxpayer.
CV, KentTUESDAY, NOVEMBER 04, 2008 18:31: Not two months ago, a contingent from IOM Treasury and political representatives went on a jolly to London, under the Freedom to flourish banner and entertained (no doubt at not inconsiderable taxpayers expense) UK officials at the Mansion House.
At the time Tony Brown quoted in his speech: "It is vitally important that we carry on building the Island's international relationships and reputation, so that the economy and prosperity of our community can continue to flourish."
Given all the expense (including the glossy brochure and menu and the lovely little three legs choccies they had with their coffee!), they must wonder why they bothered..!
FDLTUESDAY, NOVEMBER 04, 2008 16:39: Hi Folks, You heard it from Darling himself – I think the game is up for offshore banking. I feel really sorry for investors who lost money in this Iceland mess but it very much sounds like the offshore investors are going to be at the back of the cue for any compensation. The Isle of Man's bluff has been called – it's a good place to put your money when times are safe but in the looming economic uncertainty of the next few years it will be seen as a risk too far. Imagine if the Island does lose its constitutional and tax haven status, as has been inferred (and I think a certain tax haven hating democrat will be elected in the US tomorrow) then that will be that.
CCTUESDAY, NOVEMBER 04, 2008 14:30: Not that I'm a fan of the Labour Government but what did Mr Bell and Mr Brown expect? Labour have been looking for an excuse for yrs to rescind our tax situation and by going to them for help the IOM has highlighted that it is unable to cope with the crisis. I have every sympathy for all of those that lost money to KSF but they did put their money in a high interest account which in turn means high risk. The risk was taken and they lost out. Very upsetting but the chance you take (I too have close family who lost a lot of money in this but even they agree that they signed up to a risk).
It only takes an act of Parliament for us to be brought back into the UK properly, therefore losing our tax status and all of the financial sector meaning loss of jobs etc etc. The IOM 'Government' needs to be very careful how they play this with the UK.
BOBTUESDAY, NOVEMBER 04, 2008 13:02: So now the Isle of Man is a foreign land for Mr.Darling. Interestingly in wasn't when the U.K. administration (HMRS) instructed the IOM bank's branches to provide them with bank account details and transactions of their clients "who had addresses in the United Kingdom and who holded accounts outside the UK" last year. Barclays Private Clients International Limited happily obliged HMRS with the requested details and included apparently as a bonus to HMRS also details of my bank accounts covering parts of the period between February 2000 and August 2004 despite the fact that I was resident in the Isle of Man and had no address in the UK. I wonder how many other client's details had been released to HMRS this way and for what purpose.
JIRITUESDAY, NOVEMBER 04, 2008 12:38: Allister Darlings astonishing neglect of KSF UK depositors at yesterdays treasury meeting was without doubt arrogant and will prove inadvisable
When the court proceedings inaugurated by the Icelandic government commence these comments will come back and haunt him.
Its quite simple really if our government is saying "nothing to do with us because its an off shore situation" THEN THE FROZEN ASSETS OF KSF IOM DEPOSITERS SHOULD BE RETURNED TO THE RECIEVERS IMMEDIATELY AS OUR GOVERNMENT CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
STEVE CHANTREYTUESDAY, NOVEMBER 04, 2008 09:57: Alan Bell is 100% spot on. Darling knows his back's against the wall and so too do his Treasury people. What Alan Bell needs to do now is go on the offensive and offer banks the opportunity to have their domicile in IoM instead of UK and agree maximum profit tax payable subject to meeting minimum depositor compensation levels. That should put the cat amongst the pigeons.
ANDY, OnchanTUESDAY, NOVEMBER 04, 2008 05:29: From the "Independent" today reporting on yesterday's hearings by the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee: 'Responding to a large volume of queries about the fate of savers with Icelandic bank accounts held on the Isle of Man, Mr Darling said that he would have to "think long and hard" before offering them compensation, and that it was "something that we would not do lightly". He said he would look again at the tax-free and regulatory status of the Isle of Man, given the evident confusion about whether it is covered by the UK Financial Services Compensation Scheme.'
Is this an indication of the beginning of the end for our finance sector?
EVIL GOBLIN, RamseyMONDAY, NOVEMBER 03, 2008 10:38: MAT I'm sorry about your situation really I am but you don't know me from Adam. Therefore you don't know that for a period of a few months when I was growing up my parents had zero income as they were both forced out of work and the government did not want to offer any kind of benefits to a young couple with a young child, they therefore had to beg steal and borrow in order to feed and clothe me! They got through it! Maybe they did have age on their side at the time but it's rather defeatist to say that once you are over 55 and lose your money then its game over. My Gran worked until she was 70 in order to be able to pay her rent! This was necessary as her "corporate banker" of an ex husband left her and stole all HER life savings which would have been enough to almost buy her a house outright. Now with her state pension she is surviving on as good as nothing once she has paid the rent on her house! Still she manages. Yes it's terrible for you and if what I say above looks to you like I'm having a pop at you I'm really not! I am just trying to give examples of hardship that I personally have seen and I can empathise with your situation. I'm sure that if you approach the British Consulate they will be able to help you and your family temporarily until you get back on your feet. I will go back to my point about nations being rebuilt from rubble it's not easy but it is possible!
CWSATURDAY, OCTOBER 01, 2008 10:02: The news this morning,Allan Bell giving assurances that they are constantly at work over this issue,looking into things,having meetings etc,but no results yet,to me it looks like Dads Army has control of the situation,if anybody is doing the work it must be the UK government not this lot of Warlmington-on-Sea conscripts. If you want to see what our MHKs are working at today,go along to Shoprite,their packing bags of groceries,in a good cause of course,but it would have been better to employ their time looking after and meeting their constituents,and helping them with their problems. If I remember rightly,at election time,and in their manifestos,there was promises of surgeries,where are they ???.
EORHSATURDAY, NOVEMBER 01, 2008 06:51: CW – You continue with this "...we need to get up dust ourselves off and find ways to get on with life until we eventually get our compensation from the depositors compensation scheme…". Explain that to someone who has lost their entire source of income. Of their pension. Of any hope of ever being able to get back to the position they were in before. We all know the DCS is a laughable waste of time; if you have lost less that £50K then you can "…get up dust ourselves off and find ways to get on with life until we eventually get our compensation from the depositors compensation scheme…", however if you are, for example 55 years old and lose your £200K life savings then forget it - game over.
MAT WALKERSATURDAY, NOVEMBER 01, 2008 06:41: I have mentioned this on IoMToday before and i re-itterate it now. Unless the Kaupthing Singer & Freidlander debacle is resolved very quickly and with a 100% return to depositors, there will soon be deaths. A friend who works as a counsellor for severely depressed people has started to raise to very real concerns she has with the tone of comments that have started to be written on the
www.ksfiomdepositors.org site (one of the websites used by Kaupthing customers to discuss and air their views). In the first few days she said that most, if not all, of the sad and depressing stories she read were typical of 'flash' issues – that come on quickly due to sudden events, but fade almost just as quickly. However, some of the texts being posted now are starting to give her real concern for the safety of the writers. She says that for many the 'flash' issue has remained at its peak and after 3 weeks is started to do psychological damage. 'These are people who have lost absolutely everything by no fault of their own and without support, being in various places around the world, they show the signs of clinical depression with a few probably very close to taking their own lives'. I urge all involved – Tynwald, PCW, FSC and most all the UK Government – to resolve this issue very quickly or we will start seeing some real tragedies around world caused by this. I have tried to contact the UK Government representatives concerning this, but unfortunately without success (there appears to be a wall of secrecy and silence), so if anyone can get this message through to those concerned they may save a life.
MAT WALKERTHURSDAY, OCTOBER 30, 2008 13:03: The Government has been saying that they have a million or two exposed to KSF(IOM) but there are stories circulating within the financial community that this is not correct and that the IoM Government has something like 200million involved (presumably this would include Reserve Funds). I have my doubts that the Government would ever actually have such an amount in the form of cash deposits but it would be nice to know if anyone else knows whether or not the figure of a few million is correct or if it is much more.
EVIL GOBLIN, RamseyWEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 29, 2008 12:19: The whole of the media over here seem to hope this financial crisis will just go away. It won't – its going to get worse over the next 2 years at least. All the other stuff our MHKs are doing is moving deckchairs on the Titanic. The British economy is badly damaged and our banks are seen as inept and reckless by the general public. The trouble is the Isle of Man is dependant on these idiots. I think the economy will drastically shrink here next door and the housing bubble is going to well and truly burst as banking jobs are lost and institutions rationalised. If another arm of another bank goes down here, that will be that.
ANONTUESDAY, OCTOBER 28, 2008 18:25: Hi I really can't believe it.
We are in the middle of a financial crisis and all our politicians can worry about is if the council are making any money from the Nobles Park Pavilion and where to place a bus stop!!!!!!!. It beggars' believe that these items are on a National Government agenda for discussion.
Come on our NATIOAAL POLOTITIOANS, if you wanted to do commissioners work you should have stood for the local elections.
Alan Bell had to cut his holiday short to make an announcement, did ums, our reputation is on the line here and our Government seems to be doing little about it. Hospice has just lost a million pounds in the collapse of a bank and our politicians seemed to be more concerned about dogs in parks.
Can't our politicians for once leave local politics to those elected to do it and carry on their role in ensuring the National wellbeing of this Island. I think not, any politician worth their salt would be doing just that.
SANDRATUESDAY, OCTOBER 28, 2008 13:35: Hi All, Please can I clear up something that ANON has said. LloydsTSB were in the process of buying HBOS when the collapse happened and HBOS received the Government support. As to Mat's comments about HAVING to transfer his money to an offshore bank, can I please ask why he chose KSF? Lots more banks of a more secure nature offer exactly the same account facilities but at a lower rate of interest so why not one of these if your cash was in there for only a short time period? I am really sorry to hear your tale of the destruction this is having on you and your family, but don't have a go at CW for his comments as these are facts. Maybe what we should really be doing is trying to support you and people like you better. Maybe a fund of some sort that the banks and government can start to have a more immediate affect in making this hell a little easier for those most affected.
DAVETUESDAY, OCTOBER 28, 2008 09:12: MAT in response to your comments.
I stand by my statement it was not sarcastic. As is the human way we find ways to survive in times of hardship.
Look at wars, natural disasters even poverty in third world countries people find ways to get through the situation, rebuild nations from rubble and find ways to sustain themselves.
I agree your personal situation is awful and no I haven't experienced the hardship of having to hunt for food in bins, thankfully I still have a steady wage coming in so losing my savings has been an inconvenience but it hasn't affected my day to day life.
Maybe you did have to hold your funds offshore but any investment in any bank is a risk you could have put your funds with any bank anywhere in the world and the same fate could have happened.
I stand by what I said, we have been unfortunate, we need to get up dust ourselves off and find ways to get on with life until we eventually get our compensation from the depositors compensation scheme.
We have our health and ask anybody with no money they will agree with me that that is all that really matters at the end of the day.
CW MONDAY, OCTOBER 27, 2008 21:40: CW, You state that you do not respond to sarcastic remarks. Could i ask what "...but we really need to learn from our mistakes pick up the pieces and start again.." is?
Could you explain how? Many people are at an age when '…start again…' is simply not an option. Even those relatively young 40/50 something's who have spent 20-30 years building their savings will never be able to recover. For a very many of us, this disaster is not unfolding; it has already unfolded. Could I possible ask if you have had to rely on supermarket and shop bins for food? Have you had to obtain toiletries from public toilets? Have you watched as a loving, fun, happy and hard working family has disintegrated around you within a few days? When a whole family cries uncontrollably not because they are sad, but because they are terrified, tell me we just '…need to learn from our mistakes…'.
Finally. Tell me what mistakes we should learn from? Our money had just been transferred to the bank – offshore, because we had no choice – and was about to be transferred. Everything we were doing was being done due to laws and the system. It is so easy to come up with clichés like "...but we really need to learn from our mistakes pick up the pieces and start again..", but I ask you to just have a little thought first.
MAT WALKERMONDAY, OCTOBER 27, 2008 17:18: It is easy for everyone to pass the blame around, IOM, British Govt, Icelandic Govt, Bank, Greedy depositors. Are we all forgetting we are in unchartered territory here. Most people thought putting your money in a bank was a cautious investment approach. If the depositors were going for big returns they would have not put money in a bank. As for investing in big names, Do you mean HBOS, RBS, Lloyds etc, who lets remember have all been bailed out by Government. There is probably some blame that can be apportioned around many. This only way forward is for lessons to be learnt and for those who won't have to pay out to be grateful that their bank hasn't gone under YET and to show some sympathy for those who lost everything, not by going to a casino, not by buying stocks and shares but simply by putting their hard earned cash in a bank. My personal view is that most, but not all the banks have taken depositors money and gambled it. If the customers of the banks were asked if this was OK with them, there is no question what the answer would be. A hard lesson has surely been learned by eveyone of us.
ANONMONDAY, OCTOBER 27, 2008 09:12: PETER just in response to your post I have my own reasons for not putting my name up for others to view just to make you aware and I will continue using the moniker CW, this isn't out of disrespect for anybody on these forums I would just like to retain my anonymity.
DAVE completely agree with what you said as well about what has happened to the £500K a year that manx banks have been paying into the depositors compensation scheme. I am not sure exactly how many banks are members of this scheme but it isn't a new scheme so if what I say is correct then there should be a pot somewhere which contains the balance of all the payments made by the banks into the scheme. Minus maybe a few administrative charges? Unless these funds are still paying off the bank that collapsed in the eighties?
CWSUNDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2008 18:43: Hi Peter, sorry I didn't put my name on the bottom, pressed the button too quickly. In answer to the points you have made I never said not to save I merely pointed out that the people who placed their cash with the likes of KSF were after a higher rate therefore accepted a higher risk and had nothing to do with the spend spend spend rhetoric you mentioned. Obviously you missed this in your eagerness to reply and or missed the financial point I was trying to get across. As for your point about the UK tax payer I totally agree but I think this bares no relation to the Island economy. I agree the UK is well over taxed not only by income tax which I think is similar but the affect of local Council Tax is much much higher. But please don't forget that there are cheaper everyday items, such as petrol bread and milk to just name three off the top of my head, so don't shout so much as you my get the petrol brigade after you. My whole point was that the Island Tax payer is having to support something that the Banking industry, that is lauded by Tynwald so highly, should be coffing up and not the Tax Payer. I think that CW will agree that this should be the case. If CW's figures are correct and that every Banking licence carries a £500K a year donation to the compensation scheme then where has all that cash gone? If the UK Government had of handled the situation with the Icelandic banking system then this may have been settled a lot sooner. Why does the Manx tax payer have to cover the incompetence of Governments? Also Peter, the UK taxpayer isn't covering the incompetence of their Government when dealing with a massive unauthorised loan. For reference to this see the thread on the MEA. I hope I have explained a little about my rant, plus I feel that my points are valid ones.
DAVESUNDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2008 00:44: Hi Anon What a strange name - my real one is at the end of this message. Hi CW - also a strange name! I take it that you, ANON, don't save money - don't criticise CW for being a saver. It's a simple fact, if people don't save money, then any economy will collapse - the law of economics depends upon lending and borrowing. CW was attracted, like many others, to a higher interest rate because savers are very tired of funding the "spend, spend" rhetoric of the left wing government that controls the British Isles and was only seeking to find a decent return for his (or hers) willingness to save for a later day in life and not "to live for today" at the expense of others! With regards to you being a poor tax payer - trying living in the UK! I have a daughter working in the UK, on a minimum rate well below ours, and on a tax rate well above ours!
PETER FARRERSATURDAY, OCTOBER 25, 2008 17:47: As some of you say, the worst is not over yet,some people keep saying that it can't drop down to a bad recession,in the pink paper with the Examiner there is one example of keep talking the problems up,and on the back page its all doom and gloom. Fridays date the 24th October is a date in history,yet no TV news station has mentioned it as far as I can tell,its 79 years to the day when the crash happened on Wall Street 1929.
EORHFRIDAY, OCTOBER 24, 2008 14:56: ANON I can see the reasoning behind your comments stating that people only deposited the funds there because of the high rates unfortunately greed comes naturally to many, however I trust you weren't tarring all S&F depositors with the same brush? Granted my choice to deposit with S&F was swayed by the high rate but that wasn't my only reason for putting my small savings there. The option for internet banking and the fact I had received good feedback from friends who held money there were also big factors. Admittedly a little greed on my behalf was also a factor.
As for your comment "... and here was me thinking that the depositors compensation scheme was fully covered by the banks on the Island..."
Don't quote me on this as I may be wrong but I think the banks do fund the depositors compensation scheme as they have to pay the FSC £500,000 a year to cover such shortfalls and that is why the IOM compensation scheme will only offer up to £50K as to offer any more would require the government to draw on public funds.
CWFRIDAY, OCTOBER 24, 2008 13:42: I just can not believe that us poor tax payers are bailing out the greed of some of these people. As any financial advisor would tell you any deposit or anything that forms an investment will carry a risk. These people decided to deposit funds with a bank that the finance sector was warning about months before and decided not to act on it. They were also placing their cash there due to a few points better on the rate, in other words they were wanting more cash back ... greed. Why not have placed it with a bank like so many other people in this world, that actually is secure an gives you less on your cash but has a little more security. Now we, the tax payers are going to have to fork out our hard earned cash just because they want some back. I have enough money worries with the increase in fuel costs, gas prices and also the cost of paying back the millions lost in the MEA fiasco, now we have to do it all again because of this. Now we also learn that our Government placed a load of cash with them as well... I notice that didn't come out at the start of all this, I wounder if they were hoping they could get away with not telling anyone before the Icelandic government paid all the depositors back? Well caught with your pants down may just apply to Allan Bell and his cronies in the Treasury over this ..... so what is he going to do for the tax payer in all of this? yeh thats right put us squarely in the firing line ... and here was me thinking that the depositors compensation scheme was fully covered by the banks on the Island...
ANONFRIDAY, OCTOBER 24, 2008 12:19: It's so easy to complain that the depositor's compensation scheme is a joke. Granted I agree that it must seem like a slap across the face to have had £1 million and be told that you can only have £50K returned. I personally have only lost approx £3000 and I will eventually get all my money back. So I am quite lucky compared to other larger investors but bear in mind this £3000 was a lot for me personally and I am not making light of the situation in any way! However people need to take several things into account.
Many with you are no doubt going to disagree with what I say and I ask that I don't receive any sarcastic answers as I will not respond to them. Firstly why is the IOM depositor's compensation scheme so small?
As a small island with lots of large net worth clients (individuals not businesses) offshore where can we possibly obtain enough money to cover everybody's losses? we would have to draw funds from public services etc. (please correct me if I am wrong I don't claim to have an in depth knowledge of exactly how it works)
Secondly people need to take a little personal accountability. Lots of people (myself included) saw the attractive rate offered by S&F and rushed to deposit their money into this high interest account. The government did not force you to put your money there, businesses go bust all the time and we have just been unlucky that our money was there at this particular time.
I will admit more could have been done by many people government/bankers etc but we really need to learn from our mistakes pick up the pieces and start again.
(I will again reiterate the fact that I am expressing my PERSONAL OPINION I will only respond to reasonable counter comments and not sarcastic or unreasonable or personal remarks)
CWFRIDAY, OCTOBER 24, 2008 10:29: The major piece on channel 4 news last night showed the Isle of Man in a pretty bad light – yet more bad publicity – and no time limit on the compensation scheme – fantastic!- it seems the whole British Isles offshore 'industry' is now living on borrowed time – if that hasn't convinced people to move their money out of here I don't know what will. Some people (if you include head bankers in that description) over here are still trying to claim the crisis is over. Wake up folks this is act one and just the start, whole countries are starting to wobble. It'll be interesting to see how the 'well placed', diversified Manx economy fairs as the banking sector goes down the tubes. The level of complacency over here remains breathtaking – turnips or pumpkins anyone?.
CCTHURSDAY, OCTOBER 23, 2008 12:12: Here Here anon. Agree 100%. The iom does have all its eggs in one basket and once the offshore finance industry is no longer a pull there will be nothing left. The island's finance industry is run through London and that's how its always going to be. Go independent, don't make us all laugh. Its far easier to have a blame culture and use the UK gov as a 'scapegoat'. This is far easier to do than actually face up to the responsibility that should be taken to ensure this never happens again. Trust is lost. The FSC guaranteeing up to £50,000 to depositors who has lost in excess up to £850 million in total is ludicrous and no more than a drop in the ocean to these depositors. Who by the way are mostly living in foreign lands. And why blame the UK govt for the collapse of an Icelandic bank, where do Iceland stand in all of this? The island wouldn't have a leg to stand on without banks (never mind whichever way you throw me ...)finance is what made the island what it is. What's left?
TAMTHURSDAY, OCTOBER 23, 2008 11:37: In response to AC. If the UK hadn't bailed out RBS, HBOS and all of the other damaged banks, their subsidiaries would have collapsed over here in pretty short order. Your depositor guarantee scheme over here is a joke – nobody in their right mind would keep money here – it is in no way equivalent to the UK scheme – it could take years to get your money back here. An awful lot of banking jobs are going to go in the next few months anyway so The Isle of Man will need all the help it can get. You haven't got a diversified economy – you have all your eggs in one basket. Even your estate agents at long last are admitting the market has slowed – which in normal human language is your house prices are going to fall off a cliff pretty soon. I've no doubt the UK will have to bail out the banks once again further down the line.
ANONWEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 22, 2008 20:51: Dear Sir,
Perhaps in view of this latest fiasco involving the UK government, who clearly have no interest in what they probably see as little island in the Irish Sea of no consequence, and no voters to upset, is it not time to once again re-consider the obvious benefits of complete autonomy of the Isle of Man from the UK?
According to the charter, all the UK provides the island is defence, and authority to act on behalf of the Isle of Man in foreign matters. Well in this case the "diplomacy" or lack of same of the UK government may well cost the Isle of Man Government, and therefore the tax and rate payer, millions of pounds in lost savings, in addition to the lost savings of 10,000 or so residents. Of what value is the so called "Common Purse" agreement in this context? It is also highly unlikely that a foreign invader will one day sail the Irish Sea to take over the entire island of 75,000 or so people, and even if there was a serious danger of anything of that sort happening, the UK would defend the island in the interests of its own security as a close neighbour.
The positives are too numerous to mention, but we could start by abolishing VAT for parity with the Channel Isles, set our own bank interest rates and savings guarantees, and purchase fuel minus the tax which constitutes the majority of the price of fuel, so the government could set its own tax on fuel. Perhaps then we could purchase fuel at the same price as Channel Island residents.
The very least the government could do in view of this latest debacle is to hold a referendum for autonomy.
Yours faithfully,
ACTUESDAY, OCTOBER 21, 2008 03:20: SOLD OUT BY HM GOVERNMENT: After being the primary cause of the Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander (IoM) collapse the UK Government is washing its hands of the issue. 1000's of British savers have lost their life savings after comments from Darling and the actions on Icelandic banks caused the collapse of Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander on the Isle of Man. Many of these savers have now been thrown into poverty and are finding day-to-day living impossible. This is deplorable and every person involved with the running of the British Government should hang their head in shame. These are not scroungers, not tax evaders, not greedy fat cats. These are decent, hard working, tax paying individuals who have now lost everything through absolutely no fault of their own. The weight of responsibility rests firmly with the British Government, who have demonstrated their indifference and callous attitude to these individuals already. However, the 'petition rejection' and reasons given just add insult to injury. When a reply like that is received after your child offers you a 'found' (taken from a supermarket bin) orange because 'daddy is hungry and sad' – currently in a foreign country with a total of £23 to our name and no state support - the level of anger is quite indescribable.
Hi,I'm sorry to inform you that your petition has been rejected.
Your petition was classed as being in the following categories:
* Outside the remit or powers of the Prime Minister and
Government
If you wish to edit and resubmit your petition, please follow
the following link:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/overseas-savers/
You have four weeks in which to do this, after which your
petition will appear in the list of rejected petitions.
Your petition reads:
We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to: 'provide
safe banking for all British Citizens'
I urge the British government to provide access to all British
Citizens a safe banking environment, this includes all British
citizens that live overseas. The failure of Kaupthing (IOM) has
emphasised how little overseas citizens are looked after
MAT WALKERTUESDAY, OCTOBER 21, 2008 02:48: Invite for statement from Alistair Darling: Sir, In light of the human disaster that appears to be unfolding in the wake of the Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander (IoM) bank collapse, the bank depositors formally request a statement from Mr Alistair Darling in his capacity as Chancellor of the Exchequer for the United Kingdom.
It has become evident that the collapse was wholly due to the comments made by Mr Darling concerning the Icelandic government's statement that it would not honour its commitments to UK citizens and the actions taken by HM government in regard to Icelandic assets in the UK. However, the statement cannot be found, the Icelandic ambassador to the UK denies the statement was made and the UK treasury has been unable to name the source of the comment made to Mr Darling. Could the honourable Chancellor clarify how and where the comment about Iceland not honouring its commitments came from?
Secondly, many British citizens are now finding themselves in great financial hardship after losing very large sums of their savings and in some cases being thrown into a state of poverty. Could the honourable gentleman clarify the UK governments position concerning these citizens and how that stands with the repeated statements from HM government that no UK citizen will lose if their bank collapses.
Finally, could the Chancellor state whether he, or any member of HM Government, considers the Isle of Man a terrorist supporting nation or the Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander depositors members of terrorist organisations.
The reply to this correspondence will be posted on a public page within the www.ksfiomdepositors.com website and I urge the Chancellor to read the 'Your Stories' section of the website to gain an understanding of the current human disaster unfolding for these British Citizens.
Faithfully
MAT WALKER MONDAY, OCTOBER 20, 2008 19:44: Sir, The IOM Government seems to have learnt very little in all the years since the collapse of the Savings & Investment bank in 1982, in which I was a depositor. It is uncanny, reading the accounts of what has transpired, the similarities between the two events. The FSC appears to have falsely given people confidence in a banking system, that everything would henceforth since 1982 be secure. Their confidence has been shattered by the turn of events.
The investor protection system should be based upon monies derived from all of the other banks, contributing into the depositors refund in an amount directly proportional to their capitalisation value. The tax payer should not be called upon. This payout would replace depositors funds in the case of a bank going into liquidation, which have been lost. After all, it seems that Alan Bell is boasting IOM Banks are holding some £54 billions. The contributions from all of the other banks should be obligatory, as a condition of their holding a banking license. These days, £50,000 is not a huge sum. Many people have much more than £50,000. The upper limit could easily be set to £250,000.
JFK, PeelMONDAY, OCTOBER 20, 2008 12:34: wooah woah concerned
you have read it wrong i said i feel sorry for mat - i truly do -i read his letter im not stupid it explained exactly what he was doing. It was after i had typed that - that i then said all those who hoard money should spend it and enjoy it if i could help mat out i would - ill be in sydney in february - hope things have settled for you mat by then - keep us posted please as there are some genuine concerns and you are top of the list im sure - what happened to mat in such a short time is terrible so concerned - please dont think i was having a go at mat - i wasnt. mat i am worried about you being in aussie and not knowing anyone at this terrible time and no money.
JESSIEMONDAY, OCTOBER 20, 2008 12:08: Mat in Australia was not hoarding his money in an off-shore bank as a 'dodgy investment scheme'. He simply put money from his house sale in a temporary place while he moved to Australia. He can't spend it on holidays as it is needed to house his family! It is appalling that the 'macho' actions of a bullying British Prime Minister can destroy a perfectly good bank on the Isle of Man, drag the island's good name through the mire and utterly ruin many people's lives. I am aghast at the stories of hardship and wish the depositors every good fortune in getting their savings back. The Isle of Man has a long and distinguished history of helping others and we must not fail to press our government to do something before an awful tragedy results.
CONCERNED, DouglasMONDAY, OCTOBER 20, 2008 08:01: mat in aussie - i do feel sorry for you
Can i please ask a reasonable question - no sarcastic answers please - why do people have so much money invested in such wild schemes why not in an ordinary bank like IOM bank also what do these people do with the money - just look at it and worry about the interest rates ?????
this wont suit all people but i have a little in the bank and i spend the rest on holidays every year i go to aussie or new zealand and have done for 33 years and have just come back from 3 weeks in spain and off to nz again soon i enjoy what money i have and everyone says to me WOW you are lucky and i say but anyone can do it most have so much invested then worry about it and why not have a emergency fund say £6,000 and ENJOY the rest with wonderful holidays it is to late when it all gone kapunk with a bank and far far to late when you are in a wheelchair and WISH you had done this and done that i am in my 50's AND TELL YOU - enjoy your money folks - spend it - have fun it cant be much fun waking in the mornings worrying if you have any left in your investments cus one day you were going to do such and such with it
enjoy it - travel and see the world this is not a sarcastic letter it is a note to tell people enjoy life. We cant take money with us
but sounds by these letters that most of you are going to die of heart attacks with worry i have 33 years of laughs and photos so please folks enjoy the world out there and stop hoarding money - spend some and laugh and live
ANGIEBABESUNDAY, OCTOBER 19, 2008 20:40: In your article David Cannan MHK states :
'We are not looking to help the big businesses because they should be able to look after their own money.'
Actually in the Isle of Man we have a thing called the FSC paid for by the taxpayer to supervise and regulate Banks and make sure things do not go wrong. On that we have a Director of Kaupthing S&F we have an ex RBS Bank manager who took very early retirement a person appointed almost certainly because he had worked for many years for the World Bank, slight problem there was that he was actually in their PR department and so it goes on... Maybe that is why even now we have no legally binding parent company guarantees covering the likes of Barclays RBSI and Nationwide. Also is there no control with the amount of deposits they place with their parent company Look at Nationwide :
Funds placed with parent company 2,750,173 2,056,957
ie ALL their gross assets!
ANONSATURDAY, OCTOBER 18, 2008 16:50: Whilst not wishing to join the "I told you so" brigade. Do you think the lack of response could be down to lack of expertise from our elected hopelesses. They are quite at home pocketing money for little or no real work, but the minute a sad and sorry financial mess hits their doorstep – deafening silence. I am a firm believer in having elected representatives with:- a) A university education to degree level, b) a business degree and proven experience in politics. It is all well and good voting for young "whatsisname" because you have known the family for years, but when you need sound leadership and expertise this is what happens. Look around you people this is the end result. I don't think for one minute that this will sound the death knell for finance but it sure as hell must act as a wake up call.
ANONSATURDAY, OCTOBER 18, 2008 16:14: So Donald Gelling is blaming the U.K for the bank collapse, If it wasn't for the UK Bradford & Bingley RBS and HBOS here on the island would have gone under. I suggest he stops meddling in something he knows nothing about ,And let someone else sort the mess out .If it was wasn't for the UK we would be in bigger trouble, Think what it would be like if those three big banks had gone under.
A JSATURDAY, OCTOBER 18, 2008 14:22: I deposited the majority of my saving's in a fixed term deposit account with KSF.Now Iam reading that the FSC does not cover depositor;s who have taken out a bond?Could anyone answer me who knows if this is true or not as Iam somewhat uncertain? Thanks,
ANDREW DURGANSATURDAY, OCTOBER 18, 2008 10:42: What I find most amazing about the whole situation is that the UK has frozen the KSF IOM money that has been sent by the IOM subsidiary to the UK subsidiary to help pay for the UK's compensation scheme. In effect this is 21th century piracy as we the Isle of Man depositors are now financing the generous protection scheme in the UK while not being covered sufficiently our selves. How can we expect the UK to represent the IOM fairly in such a situation when they are clearly not acting in the interest of the IOM. I suspect the KSF failure has been ceased by the UK government as an opportunity to destroy offshore banking in the Islands
KESATURDAY, OCTOBER 18, 2008 10:04: The last few posts are getting to see just how this so-called government can handle things when faced with the rest of the world looking on. These 24 MHKs and 9 MLCs have had,together with their predecessors a soft job with their noses in the trough for long enough,they meet once a week mainly Tuesdays and Wednesdays three times a month for the House of Keys,and once a month for Tynwald,the rest of the time a few committees,(this is in between all the long holidays they get,)maybe go and see some of their constituents,some work hard at it,but some you never see till election time,which is in three years time,they have had two years this November,and as most people will have seen when this emergency Tynwald was called,all that turned up were on the repeater course,asking the same questions and with not the right answers. Maybe the time has come to call time on this,and lets have one MP at Westminster,with all the benefits of choice of gas/electric/telephone competition,and full membership of the European Union with all the grants to improve the lot of the people of a poor country,which we will become if this crowd of no-hopers can't get their act together.
EORHSATURDAY, OCTOBER 18, 2008 08:58: The UK government should nationalize the entire island banking and all. You'll be bankrupt before long anyway; I'm sure no one in their right mind would keep deposits in the Isle of Man right now or any other offshore centre.
IANSATURDAY, OCTOBER 18, 2008 08:20: I'm amazed that still nothing seems to be happening on the IOM regarding the Kaupthing fiasco. However it seems plenty is happening in the UK and the rest of the world. Stories about just how safe it really is to bank in the IOM are appearing in the UK weekend papers, and on web sites. Unfortunately these stories will be available for years online for anyone who cares to Google "IOM Banks" when looking for a safe place to deposit their money. There are also reports on the BBC and Channel 4 and national radio, of course these too can be viewed and listened to around the world. What is even more surprising is that the IOM government has £2 million lost in Kaupthing, yet they seem to be happy to leave it to the UK to sort out the problem for them. I'm sure the IOM savers who have lost money, and the ex financial workers there will remember this sorry period when voting time comes.
BROKE SAVERFRIDAY, OCTOBER 17, 2008 20:39: The Isle of Man is coming in for a lot of criticism as a finance centre. Every day this week there has been a programme on TV or radio about the KS&F bank collapse, implying that the island is a very unsafe place to put your money. Thursday's Border News painted a particularly bad image, referring to past bank collapses and inadequate regulation. These programmes have either no government response or a totally inadequate one, as given by Tony Brown on Tuesday's Channel 4 News. The KS&F depositors have been given very little information and are turning to the media for help. This Sunday the papers are likely to carry more critical stories. Our government must get a grip on the situation and on news management in today's global 24 hour news environment. The island's international image is deteriorating fast and with it will go our finance industry, which has funded the island's recent low personal tax, good public services regime – jobs will be lost and house prices will tumble. The Tynwald meeting on 21st October is loaded with MHK questions about the banking system and is likely to attract media attention; I hope that this is managed better for all our sakes.
JOHNFRIDAY, OCTOBER 17, 2008 17:48: Tony brown is failing miserably in his role as a 'leader of the people' of the IOM. The very future economic viability of the Island in regards of the banking sector which is so vital to the economy is now in question. After the collapse of the Savings and Investment Bank in 1982, the FSC was created specifically to ensure that nothing similar to this EVER happened again. Now the 'chips are down' the IOM authorities are simply running scared and by doing so are putting the financial well being of every resident on the Island at risk. Governments around the world, including the UK, have come to the rescue of investors in their own territories, but the IOM is doing nothing more than creating a smoke-screen by handing negotiations over the the UK treasury, discussing increasing the compensation provisions etc etc etc. Clearly this has the sole intention of devolving themselves of responsibility. Come on Tynwald, wake up and smell the coffee - stand proud and underwrite the investments of those private individuals who have trusted you to look after their deposits. It's not just a few millions at stake here - it's the entire financial well being of the IOM.
MJFRIDAY, OCTOBER 17, 2008 13:55: Does anyone know where is the ubiquitous Mr Alan Bell, IoM Finance Minister? He was always so keen on telling everyone how well the Manx economy was doing, that it now seems strange he appears to have gone to ground. Is there an embargoe on him making any utterance. Come on Mr Bell, let's have some regular public statements on what YOU are doing for those depositors on whom the wealth of the IoM economy is founded.
ROBFRIDAY, OCTOBER 17, 2008 12:17: Ive been reading about how in the 70s an IOM bank went bust and savers lost everything, and also how it took 20 years for savers to get compensation after the BCCI collapse. Now another bank has collapsed on the IOM, and no one seems to be doing a thing other than blaming one another.
The leaders on the IOM need to wake up, the world has changed. Yes this is a global problem, but banking is a global industry. With satellite TV and the internet, the world is reading and watching the IOM. There must be millions of people worldwide looking for safe places to keep their money, both now and after this is all over. If the IOM wants to be considered a safe financial centre, then they have to follow Ireland the UK and others to guarantee 100% of savers money now. Nationalise Kaupthing and pay back savers their money now. You can go through the courts later to get the money from the UK or Iceland. Allegedly, money is now flooding into Irish banks as people look for a safe haven.
I can only guess with all the stories of depositors like me loosing money in the IOM, there must be millions heading off the IOM to safe banks. This wont be forgotten soon, carry on like this and the IOM wont have any financial businesses.
PAULFRIDAY, OCTOBER 17, 2008 11:20: I seem to recall that Donald Gelling was viewed as significantly lacking in financial acumen when public inquiries into the MEA fiasco and Mount Murray fiasco were undertaken. But, in fairness to that man, I believe he accepted that financial matters were not a strength! So why was he invited to help steer the Board of a (failed) Bank?
P.S. Is there anyone out there that can get me onto the Non-Executive Directors' club circuit? I can guarantee not to ask any searching questions, not to demonstrate board leadership and definitely not to get to grips with the business and what it is all about. Furthermore, I can be available for every onerous company organised complimentary free meal, function, charity ball, photo opportunity, theatre visit, overseas trips ............etc.,..etc., My wife will also make herself constantly available to attend at my side.
Be assure my motto is "Wheresoever you send me, I will make the very best out of it" or "Quocunque jeceris stabit"
Yours merely to serve
JAYED FRIDAY, OCTOBER 17, 2008 08:14: (Editor's note: What follows is a copy of an email sent to the Tynwald offices) While you have your debate could i possibly ask that some thought it given to the families and people involved. Our family had recently moved to Australia. We had spent 25 years saving and being very careful with our money. We had never gambled, never played the stock market and had never done anything risky with our life's savings. I had recently opened an account with KSF (IOM) so that we could transfer the savings there before transferring to Australia. We had to use the IOM as we could not open an 'onshore' account with no UK address. As money here was about to run out, and we'd decided as a family to stay, the money was to be all transferred here. On Wednesday 8th Oct 2008 I phoned KSF to ensure that I would be able to do a telegraphic transfer. This was confirmed and the codeword verified and so, with the family watching and excited I bought £150000 worth of Australian dollars and faxed the telegraphic transfer instruction to KSF. That evening the whole family was excited. The next day, the Ozforex account said that it was still awaiting funds. This wasn't right. I spent 5 horrible hours trying to phone KSF with no joy. Then I heard my wife. When my wife came into the room there was total terror in her eyes. Guys, i have never had the feeling in my stomach i had at that moment. My wife, said she had heard that KSF had stopped trading and that IoM customers had lost everything. Then she cried. Since then everything each hour brings more horribleness. We have run out of money. Literally. The neighbours filled our fridge for us and made some comforting noises but that was a week ago. Although we rationed the food (something i can only say is heartbreaking) it is almost finished. When my wife gave me her potato because 'better you keep your strength up' i could have died right there. But right now I just want to end it all; they are out getting toilet paper from the public loo's nearby, and that is just killing me. Rent is due on this place (a small cheap rental we got) in two weeks. We have exactly $87.57c in the whole world. We are not the only ones. I know there are others with equally scary and sad stories; but i don't have the luxury of being able to think about them. I cannot stress how much this has affected us. We went from sensible, comfortable, hard working to having to ration food to our family, steal toilet paper and try to work out what we will do to keep a roof over us. This is happening now; not in 10 days or 6 months or a year, but now. Right now. Tonight i shall walk down to the shops and see if i can get some veggies from the shop bin – something i thought I'd never have to do. I am so frightened. Please help us. Not in a years time but now. I beg you, please help. Please think of us in your meeting.
MAT WALKER, AustraliaFRIDAY, OCTOBER 17, 2008 08:00: Did Mr Cashin have a portion of his salary deducted as he had to absent himself from any meetings or discussions involving the myriad of companies he is involved with, outside of the most high profile case of the recent bank collapse? As Deputy Head of the FSC one would assume Mr Cashin would be aware of one of its most strongly held and enforced views, simply as the FSC forcefully points out to the entities it supervises, directors duties in the main include having an ongoing awareness of the affairs of the company and its activities. An over exposure of its parent companies loan book would seem a fairly relevant fact for a director to be aware of. It is constantly preached to the Island's financial community that "the buck stops with the director" . Why is this case different? Mr Cashin, or indeed Mr Aspden, who seems so eager to defend his colleague, please feel free to respond. Additionally, do the other members of the FSC offer a portion of their salary back as there are a number of regulated Island companies they cannot fulfil their employment criteria to due to their involvement in the day-to-day affairs of the company, as evidenced by your list of directorates held by FSC members.
JM, BaldrineFRIDAY, OCTOBER 17, 2008 07:52: The strength of the FSC comes from the fact that it is run by people with a real hand in the businesses which are being regulated. In other jurisdictions where the regulators are managed by people with little experience in the market they are regulating, the regulator becomes detached from the reality of business operation. Far from being an "old boys club", the ability to appoint regulators from the best personnel of private organisations leaves it with a higher calibre of individual. Regardless, I don't see that any IoM regulator could have regulated the business in Kaupthing's headquarters in Reykjavik and avoided the current crisis. Almost all of our financial institutions lie at the mercy of parent companies abroad. Perhaps this should be a separate thread?
JRTHURSDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2008 17:05: Premier jurisdiction? I think not. What other jurisdiction has as the Chairman of one regulator (IPA) a director of a failed Bank, and the other regulator has the Deputy Chairman who was a director of a failed Bank. Makes this jurisdiction a laughing stock in the international community. The Finance Minister should be rectifying this perception, how? The two ex directors of Kaupthing might be asked to resign from their regulatory posts, also the FSC should take action to withdraw their approval for both to carry other directorships of financial institutions. If either of these gentlemen had any integrity, they would have resigned already from other directorships they hold and from their regulatory posts. Any consideration in the future of either of these gentlemen carrying directorships should be contingent upon them passing "recognised" professional qualifications, a good FSC phrase.
The Chief Executive of the Treasury might consider initiating an enquiry into the relevant protagonists in the line at the FSC. Are the CEO of FSC, Head of Supervision and Banking Supervisor competent and capable of continuing in their posts. At least one of these "musketeers" if not all should be seen to be resigning, even if it is to show the world that this jurisdiction has at least accountability.
RIPTHURSDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2008 15:48: Not only is totally wrong a that a Board Member should have any connection with a financial institution that is under its supervision but also their employees should be banned from taking up employment in the sector after leaving the FSA employ for sometime...say two years. The Board member gains access to informatiion of other institutions that are, necessarily, in competition to the one who may employ him. Likewise the employees of the FSA, only they have greater access to more information.
Take for example the supervision visits where a great deal of information has to be disclosed (although for what purpose one can only guess). It has already occurred that a member of the FSA staff direclty involved in a visit to such a business on behalf of the FSA, and with the access to all records and private details, left the FSA employ the week following the visit and immediately commenced employment with a rival business. Whilst in no way stating or implying that there was any breach of confidence or trust in this instance, can this be right and does it appear to be right?
ANONTHURSDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2008 12:58: Anyone who needs information or support following the collapse of KSF IoM should visit:
www.ksfiomdepositors.netgenius.co.ukYou'll find a whole host of us in the same position.
ANONTHURSDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2008 10:54: Please can any one advise what is the status of Singer and Friedlander Investment Management (IOM) Ltd. that operates from Samuel Harris House , 5-11 St George street, Douglas. I understand it is a separate legal entity from Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander (Isle of man) Ltd. which has been placed under a Provisional liquidation order. We have our life time savings invested in a nominee account discretionary portfolio comprising equities and hedge funds and fixed interests in this Company. We cannot contact anyone on phone in Isle of Man regarding this Company and the internet valuation cannot be accessed anymore. On 13 October it was reported that "A sister company of KSF (IoM) Ltd, Singer & Friedlander Investment Management Ltd is still trading but its board have been informed by the administrator of KSF London that it is seeking a buyer." What would be its impact on the IOM sister company ? How can we transfer our funds at this stage? Is it advisable to transfer the portfolio to a different company now, if possible, Or await till a Buyer to take over? Should one trust offshore companies anymore? Any help , guidance shall be appreciated.
FAR EASTERN INVESTORTHURSDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2008 10:31: MALC Wrong actually. The Queen is Lord of Mann all the time but that's just feudal history and irrelevant. The Queen is the Island's head of state only when in Privy Councul and either taking her Prime Minister's advice or herself cautioning or encouraging the Government of the day. She might on occasions sign an Order in Council extending some law or other to the Island but unless Crown or UK interests are at stake this is not done unless the Island requests it. The Queen now only signs Manx laws when she is actually on the Island at a sitting of Tynwald either at Fairfield or the House itself. The Royal Assent is now appended by a Privy Council official.
FLUNKEYTHURSDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2008 09:33: More pressure is being heaped upon the Isle of Man government to announce 100% protection for depositors investing in the islands banking sector. Several action groups have been set up by disgruntled investors who have lost their entire lifes savings. The IOM government claim to be concerned but have done little to help the plight of 10's of thousands of investors. The Isle of Man government seem quite content to allow one of the islands major banks, Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander, to go under without so much as a struggle. With the Isle of Man being one of the few places in the world that have not implemented any banking safety measures, the island is fast becoming a no-go area for individual and business money. Many are looking to move their money to where they consider it is safer. The view is better to move it or they may lose it.
MALCTHURSDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2008 09:32: The Queen is Head of the IOM State. Thus the Prime Minister & UK Government has a duty to protect the interests of British Citizens who have had no option but to invest in an off-shore bank. If necessary HM Government should seek the nationalisation of all IOM financial institutions that are unable to guarantee the trust put in them & promise everyone who deposited money in KFS that every penny will be restored to them, if necessary through the help of the UK Treasury. After this debacle the future of off-shore banking is doomed, so all on-shore banks should be required to extend to all ex-Pats the option of opening accounts with them.
MALCTHURSDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2008 09:30: The Isle of Man's reputation as the worlds premier offshore financial centre has been left in tatters after the collapse of one of the islands biggest banks, Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander, with the loss of 100's of millions of pounds for depositors. Unlike the governments around the world, who have stood firmly behind the banking sector, providing 100% guarantees for investors deposits, the Isle of Man government has apparently adopted the 'ostrich' approach and buried its head in the sand, hoping the crisis will go away. Long used as a 'hook' to encourage investors, the depositors protection scheme, which was supposed to protect investors in the event of a financial institution going bust, has proved totally inadequate, leaving tens of thousands of investors facing total financial ruin.
MALCTHURSDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2008 00:41: The Poacher AND Gamekeeper Golly - I've heard of Poacher turned Gamekeeper, but never of being paid as both Poacher and Gamekeeper at the same time ! But John Cashen appears as a Director of KSF (IoM) and on the Financial Service Commission Board of Governors at one and the same time ! He used to be a civil servant as Head of IoM Government Finance, responsible for Treasury Advice on levels of Depositor Compensation. How on earth can one expect absolute impartiality and independence from the FSC when it is ruled by the people it is meant to be "supervising" ? Is this the final clue that IoM is just too much of an old boys network? Of course, I knew that Donald Gelling (ex IoM Chief Minister) was also a KSF Director. BUT there is such a thing as a "conflict of interest". That means you can't be both poaching game and directing the strategy for gamekeepers to catch the poachers at one and the same time. It may be "a small island" with people doing more than one job, but that still does not mean that sound, proven, ethical business standards are just ignored. This is simply unethical, bad practice and bad governance. Mr Cashen at least should have had the decency to come to the Gaiety - as he could have represented both The Failed Bank & The Regulator. It would have saved Messrs Doherty & Aspden from both having to turn up. I hope others agree that this state of affairs is absolutely disgraceful.
JAYEDWEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 15, 2008 12:23: Having watched The isle of Man banking fiasco on channel 4 last night and just listened to the quite damning report just now on BBC Radio 4 'you and yours', manx politicians better start getting their act together. A totally inadequate compensation scheme that may take years to pay out – get real. Any outsider listening to that definitely won't invest in this place now and I can't blame them. Talk of this economy being strong enough to weather the recession is ludicrous and almost as ludicrous as the house prices over here. The amount of money which is walking out of this place on a daily basis must be incredible. Will the last one out please turn off the lights.
ANONWEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 15, 2008 11:34: Editor's note: Online debate on offshore banking now live
>> iomtoday event - Future for Offshore Banking? Editor's note: Click the following link to find out about today's (October 15) Radio 4 show debating the future of offshore accounts and have your say with our new online debating feature>> Radio 4 show to debate future of offshore accountsWEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 15, 2008 06:15: The people and Government of the Isle of Man share a common future with Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander depositors who have had their accounts frozen last week. My wife and I, a retired couple in Australia, watched in horror as the KSFIOM web site shut down, leaving us nearly penniless. Are the people and Government of the Isle of Man aware that the future of the Isle of Man banking industry depends on depositors having full access to the entire amount of their deposits? Anything less will undermine confidence in the Isle of Man as a safe banking destination and may very likely mean the end of the banking industry there. Our futures are very much joined together. Let us hope that Mr Simpson, the Liquidator Provisional, will be successful in finding a buyer for KSFIOM's deposit book. Short of that, we ask that the Isle of Man guarantee the entire value of our deposits, as other responsible governments have done for their depositors and for the welfare of their banking industries.
Our thoughts and prayers are with the people and Government of the Isle of Man in this trying hour. Best wishes,
GLENN LOWRY>>PREVIOUS COMMENTS: PAGE 2